Paladin: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 40

Hoffski · 01/27/09, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kallell

We regularly have 4 paladins in our 10man Naxxramas runs (inefficient, I know). We usually have 2 Holy, 1 Prot, and 1 Ret.

What is the best option for judging Light and Wisdom?

I'd really love to see someone make a definitive guide for all combinations of paladins in a raid, up to 1 each. Like 1 Ret does THIS, 1 Ret 1 Prot does THAT, 1 Holy 1 Prot does OTHER.

Wisdom doesn't scale with anything, it returns a percentage of base mana no matter who judges it.

Light scales best with attack power I believe, so usually a ret paladin is best for judging light.

Jaydin · 01/27/09, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kallell

We regularly have 4 paladins in our 10man Naxxramas runs (inefficient, I know). We usually have 2 Holy, 1 Prot, and 1 Ret.

What is the best option for judging Light and Wisdom?

I'd really love to see someone make a definitive guide for all combinations of paladins in a raid, up to 1 each. Like 1 Ret does THIS, 1 Ret 1 Prot does THAT, 1 Holy 1 Prot does OTHER.

That is exactly what I outlined a couple posts ago - Ret has more AP/SP which buffs up their JoL. They judge JoL. Prot has pretty much full uptime on their judgement, JoW is unaffected by SP or AP as to how much mana it regens - Prot judges JoW. Holy or other superfluous paladins with unimproved debuffs judge justice.

In most cases (barring Sapphiron and the other example above) you want 100% uptime on JoW as more classes benefit from it, including yourself. You want whichever paladin is capable of keeping it up full time, which would be either prot or ret. After that, you want JoL for extra healing (in general). And finally, anyone else judges justice. Holy paladins are welcome to try and keep a judgement up full time, but often it is rough to remember to judge every 20 seconds, and unless on farm content...you usually don't have that many free GCDs to work with.

Merovengian · 01/27/09, 4:24 PM

For pure raid buffing 1 Ret preferably the one with the best gear should use JoL because it scales with AP/SP conversions. As previously stated this is useful in high AoE situations for helping out the healers, when you will be recieving lots of SA mana returns.

For max dps let the Ret do JoW for mana regen and have the Prot/Holy use JoL.

henragar · 01/27/09, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by KhabalShatteredHand

I'm only concerned about self-buffs/talents/glyphs. If the formula is right with self buffs then it's also going to be right with raid buffs, assuming the raid buffs are applied correctly.

So Consecration is 904 + 40% AP + 40% SP (for glyphed), that makes more sense. But it's still not reflecting the damage I do with it in game, though close. 904 + .4*4026 + .4*1207 = 2997.2. The multipliers that apply to Consecration are Crusade and Sanctified Retribution, 1.03 * 1.03 = 1.0609. So the damage I do against target dummies according to this formula is 2997.2 * 1.0609 = 3179.73. So my Consecration ticks should be going 318 +/- 1, but against a target dummy they do 342 with the occasional 341. I can't figure out what I'm missing, because as far as I can tell I've included every damage modifier. If anyone can figure out what I'm missing it'd be very helpful.

Originally Posted by henragar

That's kinda interesting, seeing as how my Consecration doesn't seem to be getting any real benefit from my gear at all, regardless of how much AP or SP I have. According to my tooltip Consecration does 1500ish damage over 8 seconds(highest rank) and that is more or less exactly what I'm doing with it. The amount per tick seems to be 140 to 141 damage per tick.

Maybe it depends on the target you are using it on? I have noticed that the roaches(the small weak ones that are basically just critters) in Zul'Drak were taking 155 or so per tick.

Maybe it's just bugged for me. I was wondering why Blizzard would nix Consecration so much. The usual response I get is "Only pally tanks used it and they don't really need it anymore, so who cares." Of course, I care seeing as how I was hoping to play a Shockadin in WoTLK and Consecration was a tool we used extensively before they made all of the big changes when 3.0 came around.

I'm clearly an idiot, the Consecration tooltip shows your current damage with you current SP and AP taken into account. But I have noticed that I do slightly more damage against certain targets even with the exact same gear. As far as I know, that shouldn't happen. I was under the impression that nothing in the game has Resist Holy so you should be doing the same damage to everything. That may be what you are experiencing with your testing on the target dummies.

henragar · 01/27/09, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Merovengian

For pure raid buffing 1 Ret preferably the one with the best gear should use JoL because it scales with AP/SP conversions. As previously stated this is useful in high AoE situations for helping out the healers, when you will be recieving lots of SA mana returns.

For max dps let the Ret do JoW for mana regen and have the Prot/Holy use JoL.

If you have a Tankadin and a Retadin in the raid, it doesn't matter which one uses JoW. JoW has the same effect regardless of who uses it and is not dependent on gear.

On the other hand, JoL scales with AP/SP and so if you have a Ret and a Prot in the raid it will just about always be optimal to have the tank use JoW and the Retadin use JoL.

So as previous posters have already said, it is usually best for the Retadin to use JoL in this circumstance.

Grimmand · 01/27/09, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hoffski

Light scales best with attack power I believe, so usually a ret paladin is best for judging light.

That's one way to look at it. The other way is this:

First, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing caused by it will be counted as his threat. This can be bad, particularly if you are melee-stacked and the encounter involves AoE damage (lots of threat return for the Ret paladin, possibly resulting in pulling aggro).

Second, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing will be considered self-healing and will not return mana via Spiritual Attunement. This can be bad, as the JoL procs will at least partially heal through SoB/SotM recoil.

Prot paladin on JoL and ret paladin on JoW are ideal, as this maximises mana return to the Ret paladin, and increases threat for the tank.

kharen · 01/27/09, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Grimmand

First, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing caused by it will be counted as his threat. This can be bad, particularly if you are melee-stacked and the encounter involves AoE damage (lots of threat return for the Ret paladin, possibly resulting in pulling aggro).

3.0.8 changed JoL to not generate any threat, as it was felt to be contributing too much to prot paladins' threat (which is already plenty high, even without JoL threat or abuse of the ShotR bug that the patch also fixed).

That said, your second point is definitely valid, especially in 10-man content where buffs are scarcer and mana invariably seems to be tighter.

Grimmand · 01/27/09, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by kharen

3.0.8 changed JoL to not generate any threat, as it was felt to be contributing too much to prot paladins' threat (which is already plenty high, even without JoL threat or abuse of the ShotR bug that the patch also fixed).

I must have overlooked that change, thank you for the correction

Marama · 01/27/09, 9:47 PM

I just completed my 4 pc. T7 on my ret pally. In the process, I lost a ton of hit from the heroic legs. So, to reach hit cap, I can either equip one of two combos of weapon/belt.

The first is Titansteel Destroyer + Flame-Bathed Steel Girdle:

Dmg: 1512-1799
Spd: 3.13 (5.34% Haste)
AP: 3450
Hit: 247 (a bit over cap w/a Draenei, which we always have in raid)
Crit: 32.12%
Expertise: 3 (Human racial)

The second setup is Wraith Spear + Girdle of the Ascended Phantom:

Dmg: 1587-1889
Spd: 3.37 (6.71% Haste)
AP: 3256 (added 4 ap for upgrading belt gem to 16 from 14 STR in it now)
Hit: 244 (a bit over cap w/a Draenei, which we always have in raid)
Crit: 34.76%
Expertise: 0

This is all ten man gear.

My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm leaning toward Wraith Spear combo right now, as it hits harder, even at the lower AP, and I get a significant crit boost. Opinions/suggestions welcome.

Grimmand · 01/27/09, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Marama

I'm leaning toward Wraith Spear combo right now, as it hits harder, even at the lower AP, and I get a significant crit boost. Opinions/suggestions welcome.

I would go the Wraith Spear as well. Lower AP would only be significant if it dropped your damage range below that of the Titansteel Destroyer setup.

Sansei · 01/28/09, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by kharen

3.0.8 changed JoL to not generate any threat, as it was felt to be contributing too much to prot paladins' threat (which is already plenty high, even without JoL threat or abuse of the ShotR bug that the patch also fixed).

That said, your second point is definitely valid, especially in 10-man content where buffs are scarcer and mana invariably seems to be tighter.

I didn't see that change on patchnotes. Where do you or where can we find such info that are missing on patchnotes?

About overwriting judgements, what I understood from what I read in above posts is that a judgement overwrites a judgement of inferior power, but won't overwrite an already existent judgement otherwise. Any confirmation on this one?

If it's just like that, then if say, there's a judgement on the target, 3 seconds remaining to wear off, some inferior judgement of same name is judged, and the judgement will completely remove after 3 seconds regardless of the newly judged inferior judgement?

Mountie · 01/28/09, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Marama

I just completed my 4 pc. T7 on my ret pally. In the process, I lost a ton of hit from the heroic legs. So, to reach hit cap, I can either equip one of two combos of weapon/belt.

The first is Titansteel Destroyer + Flame-Bathed Steel Girdle:

Dmg: 1512-1799
Spd: 3.13 (5.34% Haste)
AP: 3450
Hit: 247 (a bit over cap w/a Draenei, which we always have in raid)
Crit: 32.12%
Expertise: 3 (Human racial)

The second setup is Wraith Spear + Girdle of the Ascended Phantom:

Dmg: 1587-1889
Spd: 3.37 (6.71% Haste)
AP: 3256 (added 4 ap for upgrading belt gem to 16 from 14 STR in it now)
Hit: 244 (a bit over cap w/a Draenei, which we always have in raid)
Crit: 34.76%
Expertise: 0

This is all ten man gear.

My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm leaning toward Wraith Spear combo right now, as it hits harder, even at the lower AP, and I get a significant crit boost. Opinions/suggestions welcome.

Stop trying to hit cap, it's hurting you more than it's helping you.

Blöd · 01/28/09, 9:15 AM

Since the 3.0.8 patch, i noticed the return of the judgement bug.
It can miss again (holy spec) at the cost of another GCD and a 8-sec delay to maintain JotP.

I didn't find many reports of it neither some blue comment, anyone has more infos ?

Jaydin · 01/28/09, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Grimmand

First, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing caused by it will be counted as his threat. This can be bad, particularly if you are melee-stacked and the encounter involves AoE damage (lots of threat return for the Ret paladin, possibly resulting in pulling aggro).

Second, if the ret paladin judges Light, the healing will be considered self-healing and will not return mana via Spiritual Attunement. This can be bad, as the JoL procs will at least partially heal through SoB/SotM recoil.

First point was already mentioned, but yes - JoL heals *no longer* generate threat - this was relatively well known entering 3.0.8 (to the person asking "where" it was listed, it was there...I don't know if it was documented in the "official" notes, but it was made known by blues and to the tankadin community). Second point - I just spent about 20 minutes looking through our WWS of Sarth+3 drake attempts...there were *no* SA mana gains attributed to JoL heals. there were 5 paladins, 2 Ret paladins, and myself prot...one ret paladin had about 8 million healing from JoL heals (a lot of attempts >_<), and after literally browsing the log file this is a typical entry:

01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 159 health from Taloothra Blood Aura.
01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 575 health from Orbtiz Judgement of Light.
01:36'53.203 Taloothra gains 182 health from Taloothra Blood Aura.
01:36'53.407 Taloothra gains 665 health from Uzumati Wild Growth.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra gains 88 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra Seal of Blood hits Taloothra for 170 Holy.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra gains 88 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom.
01:36'53.532 Taloothra Seal of Blood hits Taloothra for 73 Holy.
01:36'53.594 Taloothra gains 67 Mana from Spiritual Attunement.

The SA mana gain is *only* registered from wild growth - blood aura and JoL (note, the other ret paladin is casting it...it counts as *his* heal) do *not* count for SA mana return. I believe this is still working with the mechanic that it is a self-heal, rather than a *cast* heal, despite the new ownership. Earth Shield and PoM mechanics, however, do indeed trigger SA mana.

Please note this is not the only example, it just provided a nice entry with all 3 types of heals with one SA mana gain. WWS for reference

edit: to address Blöd - As I understand it, Judgement has always had a chance to miss ...its not a bug if you miss it especially as holy...that is why you need "+ hit" as part of that talent...you're attempted a ranged attack on a boss mob, 8% miss chance. Also, it's why Icewalker is a good holy boot enchant.

• frmorrison · 01/28/09, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Blöd

Since the 3.0.8 patch, i noticed the return of the judgement bug.
It can miss again (holy spec) at the cost of another GCD and a 8-sec delay to maintain JotP.

I didn't find many reports of it neither some blue comment, anyone has more infos ?

I always had that issue as Holy. Pickup the 4% hit talent + Icewalker, then only have a 8 (base) - 4.5% = 3.5% chance to miss judgements (a ranged attack, so no dodge/parry).