For a purely or mostly physical fight, the gain from being unhittable is quite strong. Don't just look at the stamina you have, look at the effective health of the setup in the situations you expect to be in.

Hey there guys, I am running as a prot pally and I just recently obtained the Purified Onyxia blood Talisman. I really dont know what to make of it. It gives ~4% avoidance but at a loss of alot of stam. I also have at my disposal the Brewfest trinket with 170 stam or the Essence of Gossamer. I could use a hand at what to do here. Should I use the Ony neck and take out my def. gems and enchants and replace them as +stam, or just not use the ony trinket. OR just stack defence... which seems like the worst option because of the DR.

If you are using Def enchants or gems, then getting the Ony trinket is a no brainer. The chest and shield are places where def enchants can be turned into health.

You don't want to stack Defense, but having Defense past 540 is a good thing (makes upgrading easier).

This, and [Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman] is better than the two trinkets you listed in any case (in my admittedly subjective opinion).

If you reach the place that you are gemming stamina primarily (except when socketing for +9 stam bonus or better) and using stats/armor on chest & cloak, then you could debate switching [Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman] for something like [The Black Heart] or [Heart of Iron]. I personally prefer the stam to the avoidance myself (plus I like emergency clickies like 45158).

greetings paladins,
Its worth getting 2 death's choises ? (258 and 245)
or stick with the cards?

It is the best setup, however I wouldn't do it because it is unfair to your guildmates taking two of the best physical dps trinkets in the game.

I expect this is a hitbox concern. The seal likely chains from anub's centre, which means that even if you were standing on an add you could easily hit anub and still have SoC not be able to chain to the add because his hitbox is quite large. If the adds are truly within 10 yards of his exact centre it should chain normally.

Assuming HL spam with 42k mana pool, what would be the most efficient way to use DP, AT+Met. Crystal, DI. That is, in what order should you use those cooldowns in order to last the longest.

Unless you are healing the PTR version of patchwerk where damage in is both constant and always growing, there really isn't any point in trying to maximize the healing you do to a dummy in a vacuum.

You DP when you think you can get away with it on the boss you are facing.

In reality, just being able to melee the boss with Judged Wisdom is such a huge increase in mana gains that you could keep up HL Spam indefinately without DP if you were allowed to melee the boss.

But boss encounters rarely ( ? never ) really allow for that.

So we have to plan for DI when we know spam is required and DP for times when we hope we can get by without casts for a few seconds.

You probably want to use Divine Illumination as early in the fight as possible, basically as soon as you start spamming HL so you can use it as many times as possible. I would use Meteorite Crystal during a low damage period where you can afford to spam or at least use more FoL so you can cast more spells to get more stacks up. Divine Plea is something I generally try to hit first at around 32k mana. If you have Talisman of Resurgence, you can use the trinket on use in combination with one DP and AW in combination with another to mitigate the healing debuff on 2 out of every 3 DPs if you have to pop them every cooldown.

I'd actually like to know the answer to this in a straight cast scenario as well.

Personally, on a fight like Algalon and with a disc priest and secondary tank healing paladin in the raid, I'm not at all adverse to opening up with a DP/HL spam and following that up with Talismen of Resurgence+Met + DI + wings. That carries me through to the first big bang without a very large dip in mana and having DP up again on going down.

The second rotation is the trickier one and really depends on how long the boss fight is. On Algalon, I'd save Met + At until DI was available and bloodlust (we lust at 20%, most don't) was cast for a last second burst in throughput and rely on mana Pot + Arcane Torrent for in between 2nd and 3rd big bang (at which point DP would be up again).

For Anub hard mode, which we havent killed yet, I start 30% off with Met +DI, then follow that up with Talismen + DP + wings + arcane torrent. We haven't made it to <17%, so I don't know if its a proper method quite yet.

A person at 20k HP will get 400 health back from each attack that procs it. The proc is something like 5 or 6 PPM, so over the course of a minute that would be 2000-2400 health. Not really worthy of mentioning for HPS per person since it's so small.

Judgement of Light has no PPM mechanic (Wisdom does). JoL will proc on every hit on the target (melee or spellcast). It is significant free healing, though far less than 3.1 (scaled with AP/Spellpower, now flat % of health).

At the 25man level - one paladin in raid, throw Wisdom. Mana for ranged for DPS purposes is incredible. 2+ Paladins, one Wis, the rest can throw Light.

Doing an eyeball check just last week I was seeing Judgments continue to stack, but it's possible it's still intermittent (sometimes stack, sometimes new pushes off old). Two Light on the same target is 4% every attack. It's significant free healing, good for stability. It's unlikely to directly save a life, but is great at keeping everyone stable after AOE effects so healers have time to cast on an at-risk target.

Raid buffed you're looking at most folks in the 20-30k health range (low for casters, high for melee), with tanks up to 50k+. So 400 to 600 per hit on raid, and 1000 per hit for tanks.

How did you check that? If by checking debuffs, are you sure you didn't mix it with the Judgements of the Just debuff, which has the same icon?

I'm pretty sure not every hit procs a JoL healing. Also the tooltip says it's a chance on hit. Rogues getting more JoL healing due to dual wielding fast weapons wouldn't make sense.

As for two JoL stacking, I agree that you might have mistaken it for judgement of the just. I can confirm 100% that they don't stack. If you really see two JoL icons at the same time, i'm sure it's just a display bug. You must have experienced seeing two of the same type of blessing on some player, although you know only one of them is active, and the other one is simply a display error.

I think the answers you can get here will very much likely be subjective, since deciding on priority/order and generalizing them would require a huge amount of data mining. That is even more so considering the boss fights are usually different than one another and the healing requirements changing with time is not usually the same.

I actually wrote a whole 4 paragraphs describing how I do it in various situations, but found it pointless to talk about generalization as even I dont 100% of the time follow the exact same order, my very own order that I wrote.

I think if you give us specific encounter names, more people can contribute with meaningful suggestions.

The idea was that if I spam HL and know from experience that no one will die even if I use DP, how I can maximize longevity with 100% spam. This means that I would be using the cooldowns as soon as I can, but since blowing them all before the first cast doesn't get you the most out of them, I'm asking what order would be the best.

If no one will die even under DP, then you would not be spamming HL.
You would be casting FoL with the same HPS throughput as HL under DP and could do it forever without any other spells being required.

You can use tricks that makes your statement false, i.e. using a click trinket (like the badge one) during Plea makes HL more HPS as normal Flash when you include the random Glyph heals. Or you can use Wings + Plea for a similar effect.

HL and Flash are very similar spells once you get all the Holy talents that support them, except HL casts a little slower but gains a lot more spell power.

Depends on fight length.

If you have a 1m CD that gives 10,500 mana over 15s, a 2m CD that gives 2520 instantly + 2m CD that gives ~3500/20s, and a 3m that gives 50% mana reduced.

You can use almost all of them right from the get go in a fight since Divine Plea will barely out regen your full spam, and AT will only cause issues because it is instant. Divine Illumination or your Trinket can be popped on your first cast with full benefit.

To maximize total mana, you need to maximize up time of these, meaning DP is prioritized in the long run, but Divine Illumination has individual priority due to its long cool down and it being the second most potent option. A 6m,20s fight should see 3 DI's and 6 DPs, but if you DP first before DI, you either waste some DP or DI, or only get 2 DI, 6 DP.

I would go DI + Trinket, wait like 10-12s DP, AT when DP ends. This should be 100% effective use of all of these with no wasted mana or time. Unless you are interested in Healing / mana too, it doesn't matter their timing since they do not effect the returns of eachother. DP will come off CD first and should be popped without issue. Then you will have your Trinket, DP, and AT all come off CD around the same time (within 20s). They should be able to be poped together (all 3) since it was 95s of 700+ mps out. It is likely that without a mana pot or LoH your mana pool will be nearing 0 at this point (unless you are using SoW/Replenishment/etc. to also factor in). The Trinket + DP + AT combo will give ~16,000 mana, not enough to hold off for the 4th DP/DI.

AFAIK, any other way will waste mana or have less uptime.

Ok, so i have a two part question, first part concerns trinkets for Ret pallys, the second part has to do with stats for holy pallys.

Ret Trinket- My question is, while running naxx, the item [Grim Troll] dropped ( 83 hit rating, chance on hit gives 612 ArP). My question is, currently having [Banner of Victory] ( 84 ArP, chance on hit gives 1008 AP), and [Loatheb's Shadow] ( 84 crit, Use: Increases attack power by 670 for 20 sec), would it be worth replacing either of those for the Grim Troll? From what ive read, ArP is pretty much one of the most useless stats for Retadins, besides SP, but might it be worth it since its passive (one less thing to worry about), and its aton...like ALOT, was wonderin if anyone could help.

Holy question - Sorry for the lengthy post, but i didnt see anything in the pally mechanics section for holy pally. What stats do i want? Do i just stack SP/Int/Crit, or do i want haste? Ill probably end up throwing in Mp5 gems into the mix just because thats what ill have to take, and it cant hurt. Im wondering if i need haste simply because of two talents: Light's Grace( When you cast Holy Light, reduces the cast of the next Holy Light by .5 seconds), and Judgements of the Pure ( Increases judgement damage by 25%, with full 5 points, and increases spell/melee haste by 15% for 1 minute), With the haste i have now, a very low amount ( under 200 rating), when i proc both of those, my Holy Light goes down to a 1.5 second cast, and my flash of light goes down to 1 second cast. If anyone could help me with my stats, what caps i want, etc, id be very, VERY, grateful. Thanks.

P.S- Once again, sorry for the really long post, but i thought that describing everything would help since no one would have to look anything up, also, sorry for the Grammar/spelling mistakes i know are going to be spread out in the post.

If you're going for the most common and accepted by most of the community as best approach of gearing and gemming for heavy HL use, this is your stat priority

INT>Haste>mp5>Crit>SP

Gem all INT beyond the meta requirements. You want to ignore literally all socket bonuses. HL heals and overheals for so much that you don't need to ever stack SP, you will get enough from gear and from the 20% INT to SP bonus. The idea is to get as large a mana pool as possible to get the best possible return from replenishment, divine plea, judgement of wisdom, and arcane torrent (for BE). MP5 is a decent regen stat, but it doesn't scale from Kings, and gives no secondary benefits (INT gives regen, starting mana pool size increase, SP and crit), MP5 is just regen. From a regen perspective, INT is better than Mp5 per itemization poin by a factor of 1.8:1. Crit has become a very weak stat after the illumination nerf. During chain casting HL situations, crit is weaker than Mp5 per itemization point by about a 2:1 margin. It does give some healing output from more crits, but its unreliable and RNG based, and crits on HL typically result in just more overheal.

Haste is very important because it has a huge impact on your HPS and ability to react to burst damage. Generally, you want to get near the soft haste cap of about 675. This will cap out your GCD and FoL cast time at 1 second. Lower GCD also benefits you when using beacon, SS, and holy shock. Past 675ish haste, it becomes quite a bit less desirable. It will continue to improve your HPS and reduce HL cast time, but it takes so much haste to bring the HL cast time down from ~1.3 seconds at the soft haste cap to 1.2 seconds that it may not be worth it. HPS continutes to increase, but it doesn't help you with GCD restricted instances, FoL and marginally impacts your ability to react to burst damage.

Therefore, what I would do is

1. Gem all INT (except meta activation)
2. Focus on getting as much Haste/mp5 itemized gear until you hit the soft haste cap
3. Past the soft haste cap, Crit/Mp5 gear and its double regen becomes more attractive.