600 mana every 50 seconds or so is 12Mp5 along with another 10-15 because of the int. Assuming 2k int before the meta, that's an additional 40 int which comes out to be 20-30 Mp5. I'm not counting SP because it's negligible. The Mp5 numbers are from calculations done on this page. I've taken the liberty of giving a generous range of Int to Mp5 calcs.

Does that take into account the at least 20 int you would lose by having to use 3 red gems instead of just 1 tear?

I've been trying to figure out for a while which is the better weapon enchant, for a retadin, the random +400 ap or a static +110ap.

I've looked for about 2 hours now and the only thing i can find is that wow-heros gives +110ap a high gs thing. But im not sure i would assume beserker would be since i see most paladins with it instead of +110.

From the Retribution 3.2 thread in this forum:

How berserking works: Berserking is a ppm based proc, similar to mongoose (1.2 ppm) - in a raid environment it has a ~35% uptime. It can only trigger off attacks flagged as melee attacks and melee specials (Judgements, CS, DS, white swings). Napkin math shows that in a scenario with a 35% uptime, the enchant is worth ~135AP on average, and up to/more than ~250AP if RNG favors you - in both normal and lucky cases, it is clearly the superior weapon enchant.

Berserking can chain-proc. If the RNG was very, very kind you could have 100% up-time on a fight. This rarely happens. Ret Paladin community testing (back in the 3.0 thread, I believe) found an average up-time of about 75%.

Therefore the comparison is 110 AP constantly vs 400 AP 75% of the time.
110 vs (400 * .75) = 110 vs 300.

Berserking wins hands down.

Edit: Yes, my memory serves me well - contradicting the above post, I just checked a few samples fights on World of Logs. Such as Jaraxxus normal (near 100% stand and DPS). I had 96% up-time one week, 80% up-time the next and 84% the third. That was with a 31 second no-proc streak the second week. If anything, 75% is lowballing the estimate.

Actually, 600 mana every 50 seconds works out to 60 mp5 not 12 mp5.

Assuming 1 INT=0.9 mp5, you get
60 mp5 from the proc
19 mp5 from the INT

79 mp5 total

Going with the 25 SP/2% INT gem, off the bat you lose an additional 20 INT due to the meta activation requirements, so that's an additional 18 mp5, which puts it to 97 mp5 total. That means you need to gain 87.3 INT from the 2% INT meta to make it worth it.

That means the 25 SP/2% INT gem only becomes superior once you have 4365 INT unbuffed. We are barely crossing half that threshold in TOC gear, so unless ICC gear becomes ridiculous in terms of stat allocation, the Insightful will continue to reign supreme.

If you're using v2.2.24 of Rawr, there is an option to filter out all items with spirit or hit on them when modeling upgrades. I believe this is checked by default. The options to toggle spirit and hit are under the 'Options' tab, underneath the Beacon of Light uptime and effectiveness sliding scales.

Thanks, I found it- and it is a great upgrade.

Tested Divinity talent in terms of affecting JoL a few weeks ago and could not see any difference in the numbers.
Was testing it with another holy paladin who had 2 points in divinity and I had 5 points in it. When we judged different test dummies and melee'd them to get procs, the amount of healing was the same from both dummies. We tried in the same party and as solo since I was unsure whether improved devotion would have an effect as well (turns out it doesn't affect JoL either). I did not have a paladin with 0 points of divinity available at the time, so I can't tell if the difference was so little and was rounded up by blizzard to the same number.

Can anybody confirm or deny with proof (some combat log snippets or WWS) whether JoL is actually affected by Divinity talent? I took it as granted since reading the 1st page of ret discussion for 3.2, and I was surprised to see no difference when I had my small test.

EDIT: tested today with a paladin having 0 points in divinity talent. I have 5 points of it in my spec. I can confirm that JoL isn't affected by divinity.

If JoL's healing doesn't double dip on the divinity talent as healing done both by and to you, then your test is flawed. Check and see what 0/5 JoL heals for on a player with no passive healing bonuses, then see what a 5/5 Divinity JoL heals for on the same player.

aylin is a ret paladin without the divinity talent. we tried the test with both judging different dummies and him proccing jol heals on both, as well. healing was always the same. only changed when i buffed him with kings which is a no brainer obvious as to why it healed more.
the one reason can be that we were in same party and i have improved devotion aura. if the 5% healing from it affects jol but doesnt stack with divinity, then it could be something. but i did not test imp devo behavior. even if it were so we always have imp devo or tree form in raids, meaning divinity isnt a factor to decide who judges light.

There shouldn't be any cap on the amount blocked, or if there is, it's likely safe to say that it is unreachable, otherwise talents like Redoubt (at least the percentage blocked, not the proc) would quickly become totally useless.

However, while stacking block value past the threat cap does mitigate a good bit of incoming damage, you might be better off letting it build itself as you increase in strength (the stat) as your gear progresses. Instead, try focusing on replacing dodge with agility once you're "unhittable / block capped / uncrushable." (Choose whichever term you like best)

Awesome, thanks. I didn't think there was any cap on it, he was saying that it was something from back at level 60 or something like that.

In any case, that's interesting, but how would you go about doing that? All the dodge i get is from gear, i personally gem for pure stam myself.

If you don't gem for anything else but stamina, there's not much of a way to do it, as only one piece of epic plate in Wrath has agility on it. The idea though is that you can replace any [Regal Dreadstone] gems with [Shifting Dreadstone], or [Subtle Cardinal Ruby] with [Delicate Cardinal Ruby]. Since most socket bonuses on tank plate are stamina, you don't lose quite so much stam for more avoidance and mitigation when you activate blue and red sockets this way.

Which of our dps skills are affected by the DK skill/talent Hysteria?

Auto attack, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm all deal physical damage and therefore benefit from Hysteria.

EDIT: Higher crits while under the influence of Hysteria should also lead to higher Righteous Vengeance ticks, though I don't know whether the scaled damage counts as "weapon damage" for the purpose of scaling seal procs.

You cant rely on training dummies for judging dps. Training dummies are ok for rotations and seeing what abilities trigger what procs but not dps.

Try glyphing SoV over HW.

You are at only 3 expertise, so getting the SoV glyph will be a direct expertise increase, and should greatly increase DPS with SoV up. Also, Glyph of Consecration is considered pretty much a mandatory glyph. Try again with Glyph of Consecration, Glyph of Judgement and Glyph of SoV and see what results you get. Also, [Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude] which is available for 15k honor gives higher DPS than Libram of Discord when not using SoV.

Another thing is, what training dummy are you using? The training dummies in some cities are set up in such a way that the non-boss dummies can get hit with your AoE while DPSing them because they are close together. IIRC, the training dummy in Darnassus definitely is like that; I don't remember the other Alliance cities. If you are within cleave range of other dummies, then SoC definitely will artificially look better.

Thx for the tips everyone, it is appreciated but I wasnt asking for help in general to improve my dps, I was seeking an explanation why SoC/Discord gives better results than SoV/Valiance. Not just on a dummy but in raids also (and not counting AoE with SoC).

I know about my expertise, I have been replacing gear and regemming which is the reason why I don't have SoV glyph yet (equipping it tonight, can't do everything at once I need to sleep as well). Point here is that the same lack of expertise applies to SoC as well so both situations will suffer the loss in dps. In fact, equipping SoV glyph will skew the results compared to SoC, so this does not explain why SoC/Discord would give better results than SoV/Valiance.

In my original post I explained I positioned myself behind the dummy so as not to hit the dummies next to it with SoC.

Last but not least, for the sake of testing I have not been using Consecrate and the glyph of Consecration will surely give an improvement in dps, but again it would apply for both situations. Again good but general advise that does not explain why SoC/Discord would give better results than SoV/Valiance.

Hopefully not worth another infraction but I'm not begging for hand holding. I have been reading about my class *continually* which is why I want to use SoV/Valiance in the first place and I've come here for help to find out why it's not working as expected. I'm trying to figure it out and can't find it in the class discussions already posted, which is why I am posting here.

Please indicate in which Grand Master Training Dummies have you "tested" this. From what I've personally checked there is no way to "position yourself behind the dummy so as to not hit the one next to it". SoC cleaves and DS hits occur regardless of where you stand.

SoC is not superior to SoV single target, your results are skewed because you don't realize you are indeed cleaving with SoC.

Changed my offspec to holy this weekend. Have most slots filled, but they one that is really causing me greif are shoulders. I just want a pair of non-raid, decently itemized shoulders. Am I really going to be wearing cloth from ToC reg unless I'm willing to spend triumphs? I wanted to save my triumphs for my prot spec which still needs the libram and the ring.

If you have mainspec items to spend your emblems on, the only choice for you is to loot whatever is an upgrade for you. Only the stats on the item is important for you, it doesn't matter whether they are cloth, plate, etc.


I have a different question/observation. Lately LoH fails at saving people even with direct casts when it's an emergency. I see I use my LoH, it's even announced in raid with my announcer addon but there is a delay up to 1 second that will not register the heal until the person is dead. I see my LoH goes to cooldown, but the person never receives the heal. I started experiencing this a month or so ago.

If LoH registers with around 1 second delay, how are we suppose to use it as an emergency button? I did not have this lag issue although I've always been experiencing the lag with beacon. Direct heal from LoH used to land instantly for me. It simply is not anymore. Does anybody notice any change or know of an undocumented technical change to LoH's working principle? My latency in raids has never changed in the last 6 months or more. LoH started failing to register instantly in the last month or two.