Redcape

During the WotLK beta I built and maintained a dps calculator for Retribution Paladins. It was designed to give us a sense of how to gear and what to expect as we levelled up and prepared for raiding. I have done some polish work on it to make it a easier to use and more complete, and here it is, all set for level 80 raiding.

I have just put out version 2.5. It is up to date for patch 3.1 as far as I know.

v 2.0 Version 2.0 (Outdated)

v 2.2 Version 2.2 (Outdated)

v 2.3 Version 2.3 (Outdated)

Newest Version! v2.5 -> Version 2.5 <-

-The gear supplied is the gear I happen to have right now. It should adequately reflect someone geared in mixed ilvl 200/213 epics as a dwarf JC/Alch. It is easy to modify the gear/professions/racial differences as desired.

-In the gear page you can insert test gear in the lower of the 2 boxes to see how it will change your dps. If you want to use the test gear you have entered there, just put a 1 in the Test Gear (yellow colour) field above the slot you want to temporarily swap in.

-I have changed the defaults in the sheet to reflect the new reality that SoB/SoM is flat out the best. It is still possible to model the other seals, but given the way things stand currently it is best to just assume you will be using SoB/SoM.

My intention is to maintain this spreadsheet through any changes that occur in the game. I will continue to update it for set bonuses, patches, coefficient changes or game knowledge changes. If any of these things come out that you want me to include in the next version, please send me a PM here and I will be sure to get it done. I won't be adding in a database of items though, as the current functionality is about as much as I am interested in implementing. Hopefully you can easily find the information you need with what is there, but if there are general changes that you would like to see, let me know.

In case you aren't interested in downloading a spreadsheet and just want the quick version, here it is:

SoB/SoM are the best seals. If you cannot risk the damage SoC is in second place even without a Glyph, though if you find 5 points for SotP then SoR becomes pretty reasonable.

The best Glyph setup is Judgement, Consecration, Exorcism.

When using SoB your DPS return on 100 of each stat is as follows:

Weapon Speed 33580 (per 100 weapon speed, obviously only useful as a weighting)
Weapon DPS 617
Hit rating 213
Str 166
Exp rating 154
Crit rating 81
Agil 76
Haste rating 72
Armor Penetration 72
AP 66
SP 15

When making weightings, pay attention to your hit/expertise caps. These weights ignore them!

Fixes for 2.2:

-Fixed a bug with SoB damage that overestimated it when the mob was below 20% health.
-Fixed a bug where the mana return from SoB was being overestimated due to counting the dot for self damage.

-Changed the sheet to incorporate hit caps and expertise caps. Originally this was left out intentionally for the purpose of making the stat returns easy, but I did a bunch of work changing the way those work to accommodate capping things.
-Added support for professions(BS, Herb, Skinner, Alchemist) Other professions supported through Enchants.
-Added support for HoW glyph.
-Added functionality to the Gear section to make testing changes much easier.
-Added support for weapon speed as a weighting
-Improved the Undead toggle to support any % you wish to use.

-Moved things around:
-DPM, DPC, alternate seals moved to a page of their own for advanced users developing rotations.
-Moved some of the unnecessary intermediate information from the gear page to calculations.
-Rearranged the Main page and Talents and Buffs pages slightly for ease of use.

-Updated SoC, Vengeance and JoW to reflect new patch changes.
-Updated boss armor total to 13083 and base miss chance to 8% to reflect new research.

Fixes/changes for 2.3

v.2.3

-Changed Righteous Vengeance for 3.08
-Reversed Vengeance change for 3.08 final version
-Removed Herbalism AP for 3.08
-Changed JoW calculations for 3.08
-Added HoW glyph support for 3.08

-Changed implementation of AW
-Changed Divine Plea implementation
-Added support for Heroism

-Changed JC implementation to assume 27 Str gems

-Corrected minor bug with Exorcism damage calculation

Changes for 2.5

-Updated for RV, Fanatacism, Sanctified Seals, DS (110%), and JotW changes

-Updated Expertise and Haste coefficient changes
-Updated partial resist to 6% from 4.5% to reflect new testing
-Added boss crit suppression 4.8% melee 2% spell
-Updated armor calculations for new base armor and new armor reductions
-Updated spellcrit debuff to 5%, physical damage debuff to 4%
-Changed mana regen formulas for SA loss, totem/BoW merge
-Changed implementation for special attacks to 2 roll system

-Updated for RV 'double dip' changes
-Changed ability delays based on T8 gear and new priorities.
-Changed Exorcism and Undead/Demon% implementation for new Exorcism
-Changed SoB coefficients

-Updated Glyphs - SoB, Exorcism
-Added Tier 8 set bonuses

 

lestermobile

I have a general question on weapons. Before, slower weapons with bigger "damage" as opposed to DPS were usually the best weapons since abilities used the weapon damage as their coefficient as opposed to weapon DPS. Is this still the case, or should we just focus on weapon DPS.

Redcape, I was wondering since in your DPS return section above, you only mention weapon DPS and not speed and/or damage. Thanks so much!

I'm asking in this thread because of Redcape's vast spreadsheet knowledge. Please move if it should go elsewhere.

 

Milou

This question is more in relation Rawr but relevant here, rawr is giving ArP very very high value when I setup all my raid buffs (very low otherwise, sunder et all would affect that greatly of course). Is that taken into account with your numbers?

Also do you have numbers on tbc/wotlk meta gems? Debating between Titan's Outlook and T7.

 

Svetozar

Is it possible to enter your current gear and make the spreadsheet come up with a list of upgrades sorted by incremental DPS?

 

• frmorrison

What you can do (to know dps upgrades) is get a mod like Pawn or use Wowhead and enter the stat weights given by the spreadsheet.

That way you can compare gear. Note as gear changes the stat weights change, but using the static weights is better than nothing and is a very fast comparison.

 

Redcape

Weapon speed is relevant, the slower your weapon the better. The easiest way to see this is to simply change the weapon speed entry in the gear section and look at the results. A good rule of thumb at that gear level is that .1 weapon speed = 30 dps. That would imply that .1 weapon speed is worth roughly as much as 5.7 weapon DPS. As such, slower weapon speed is good, but it isn't everything.

It is taken into account. If you look at the raid buffs you will see armor debuffs there, you can turn them on or off or change the values to see what happens. ArPen gets better the more of it you stack but you would need to stack an incredible amount in order to see ArPen become good.

There is a section in the buffs/talents page that allows you to enter the 3% crit damage metagem. It is worth 100 DPS with this gearset, which is a pretty massive benefit. I can't imagine anything without a metagem slot being even close to comparable.

No. I would have to program in every piece of gear including gem combinations for that to be possible, and I am not interested in creating a full item database for my program. You can use the stat weighting search function on wowhead to order possible upgrades for yourself if you want this sort of functionality, as it is very well designed for exactly this purpose. You could also try to using Rawr, but I don't know that there is a current version that is bug free yet.

 

Leonti

Thanks for this great work!

And that's exactly the way i use your numbers, e.g.: Two-Handed Maces - Items - World of Warcraft

You just have to switch the selection via the breadcrumbs navigation. Very comfortable. For sure in this case you have to care about maximal possible itemstats or special bonuses, like max hit or set bonuses, for yourself!

The only thing i'm not sure is how trinkets and/or librams are evaluated. They have the most time special effects, which need to be covered with special evaluation algorithms, so i'm not sure if these numbers are valid. Any comments/hints on these situations?

Leonti - "Klein, fein und gemein."
Proud Member of Kavar Grunas Bar

Celeon - Armory Link
Leonti - Armory Link

 

Quozzy

I Would suggest to anyone trying to compare weapons using such a page, you should also include weapon speed. As Redcape already said, 0.1s is worth ~30dps, you can use the spreadsheet to work out how much additional strength will also give a 30dps increase, and thus come up with a weighting and truly reflect how different weapons compare.

For example, for me (using the spreadsheet with the gear I plugged in) 0.1s = 18str, using the values in the above page, I'd give 'Speed' a value of: 10 * 18 * 168 = 30240

The numbers might be astronomical for weapons, but they allow you to compare weapons more accurately.

 

Leonti

So based on boredom, extended server maintendance and holidays , i've decided to try some trinket calculations, since i can't find any summary.

I've made some assumptions where the calculations are based on:

On use trinkets: An average effect was calculated, based on cooldown and active effect time, e.g. median effect = 360AP / 120 seconds cooldown / 20 seconds active effect seconds.

Proc trinkets: Similar, but assumed that a proc effect occures at least once in 2 minutes. This is a very weak assumption, some input to general proc timings, calculations would improve these numbers!

I used Redcapes SoB - DPS / 100 itempoints weights.

Google Docs - Paladin Trinket Comparision

Leonti - "Klein, fein und gemein."
Proud Member of Kavar Grunas Bar

Celeon - Armory Link
Leonti - Armory Link

 

Milou

Something, which I'm sure everyone has also considered, is that on use trinkets have the same 2 minute cooldown as wings. An AP boost with 20% extra damage will be more valuable then if you just consider the trinket on cooldown by itself.

Also how much value are we to put on our set bonus? They both seem pretty good though not godly, but the problem lies in the gear itself. It's mostly bad compared to other stuff available (the endless *sigh* about plate being a downgrade) and I just don't see how these bonuses can push the item's worth to be at least tied with non-set/leather pieces.

 

Redcape

Trinkets and librams are a mess. Particularly in the case of librams/relics/etc. Blizzard does not have any kind of standardization of power. You will have to look at each one individually and determine what kind of effect you are going to get out of it. I believe the best available options in WotLK are the CS Librams that give a temporary AP boost. Trinkets are difficult and not particularly searchable on wowhead, so I would suggest doing those manually too. Imo the best ones are [Mirror of Truth] and [Darkmoon Card: Greatness].
That is easy to calculate for the DS bonus. Just figure out your DS DPS and multiply by .1. In the case of my sheet defaults it is worth something like 37 DPS. Some of our set items are poor, but several are quite good (or everything else sucks too) so I expect you will get the DS bonus without trying. How good the -1 sec Judgement cooldown bonus is is a much nastier beast and depends a lot on the rotation you want to use. I honestly can't answer that one. It seems useful but I am not overly excited about it.

Str is insane for us, so the plate that has hit, expertise, crit, agility and str will be awesome. Plate that has Arpen and/or haste will suck. Generally since leather/mail gets more stats than plate it will tend to pull ahead, but those pieces never have str. I expect to maximize your dps you will end up putting on some plate and some leather, but because str is so over the top good I don't think that we favor leather as heavily as many people seem to think.

 

vyce

I have made a post in the WoWhead suggestion forum requesting that they update their Preset Ret Pally stat weights to match the numbers you have come up with.

If anyone would like to support the suggestion, post here: Preset Ret Pally stat weights - Site Feedback - Wowhead Forums

 

Alarius

Perhaps include the weighted weapon speed as discussed above.

Since the weight discussed above by Quozzy is based on some of his gear plug-ins, would it be possible to create one based on a more generic value?

Edit: Also, I've noticed that when 30240 is plugged into weapon speed on Wowhead the value is adjusted to 30.24, would this be a bug with the way Wowhead uses values?

 

inksy

I have been following Ret dps for a couple months now but am still a bit fuzzy on one subject, hit/exp cap. Obviously strength is weighted far more than any other stat, but is there any focus on actually hitting a cap or should we just take whatever hit/exp comes on our gear until that point all the while gemming and enchanting for strength? I am mostly concerned with the effect missed judgments will have on our mana.

Edited for clarity

 

Bloodvalor

I plugged Recape's numbers real quick into WoWHead while searching at the best Feet slot item. This is what I came up with.

Armor - Items - World of Warcraft

This only includes Rare gems as I don't know if Epics are even available currently.

Does it bother anyone else that the #1 option are leather boots? 2-5 are plate, but then look at #6 the Boots of Neverending Path. WOW. An ilvl 200 item acquired through reputation grind. Can this really be possible? The ilvl 200 plate boots you can get from reputation grind are down at #11 the Death-Inured Sabatons.

 

Rasputin

Our best options have been leather in many slots for quite some time. This is a long-standing issue that had a lot of griping devoted to it on the beta forums with no response. Leather will sometimes be the best for us, and the developers appear to think that's completely fine. Whether I'd prefer to wear plate because I'm a rp-nerd and it smooths loot distribution within my raid is irrelevant as is any other consideration. Leather and mail will sometimes be best, take it or don't.

 

Bloodvalor

I'm most interested in this as well. I might run some of my own tests, but I haven't done that before. What's the mod I see some of the normal and experienced testers use that I've seen pictures of that show them a pie chart with information on their attacks ect...

 

Chriz

That mod would be Recount.

Recount --> Curse

 

• frmorrison

Atm some leather/mail is better than plate. However, I believe Blizzard will use better itemization on plate once T8 and T9 comes out (less haste/armor pen, more other stuff) to remove that issue.

 

Quozzy

I redid the math for Redcape's values, and came out with a value for speed: 29819. I checked out the wowhead page, and couldn't work out what was happening there, not sure why it changes any value you input.

I personally use Lootrank, I rounded all the values to 1dp to make it work.

 

eMagdAeH

I had a quick question, that I'm not sure how to map out for testing...mostly because I suck at math. Is there enough mana to drop the CS Glpyh for SoComm Glyph? Part 2: is there enough instances where SoB/M can't be used to make that switch worthwhile?

 

Redcape

Missing Judgements is a concern. While hit/exp is worse than str for pure dps, missing a few Judgements back to back would be really bad, which elevates hit some. How much is a more difficult question to answer though. I think you would not go wrong gemming hit in yellow sockets until capped, but the amount of hit on our gear seems really, really high so it may not be much of a concern in the end.

That depends on the fight and on your raid. If you get BoW and a Mana Spring totem your mana will be much better, but if you lack those things your mana will be a much bigger concern. Also you should consider that when you drop SoB/SoM for Command your mana situation gets a LOT worse because you get much less SA mana, so the CS Glyph might be key there too.

You are going to have to evaluate your particular raid and group setup in the context of the fights you are currently doing that matter to answer that properly.

 

Valerys

On the subject of gemming, has anyone found yet where does the design for Etched Monarch Topaz come from? It's not on the Dalaran design vendor and does not show as a drop on Wowhead.

 

Kirth

Might was to look at the Engineering trinkets in your spreadsheet. Sonic Amplifier is its name I think (can't access wowhead at work so no link, sorry). it has a 1 minute internal cooldown, but it seems to proc not off weapon swing but has a chance while you are in combat.

 

• Voldin

The reason that RAWR returns a seemingly high value for armor pen is that RAWR values stats based on the itemization cost to add them. 1 itemization point returns 6.67 armor penetration. 1 single ArP point isn't worth much at all, but compare Redcape's numbers to the RAWR numbers where you normalize by item points and 7 ArP should be pretty close to the number you're getting from RAWR.

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