Exemplar

As we're often seeing questions about gear comparisons, here's another spreadsheet.

I took Bellator's old (excellent) spreadsheet. I updated it for Wrath Talents and abilities. I've made a lot of cosmetic changes as well as what I consider feature upgrades (such as professions).

It has the latest forum info - 8% hit cap, loss of 4.8% crit. Grand Total on the Character tab should match your paper doll - lost crit is calculated in the DPS crunch. Effective cooldowns are from a graph I mocked up (included in the spreadsheet if you desire to un-hide it). These can be manually replaced for instant re-calc of total DPS. Explore - lots of drop down boxes.

Anything that works well you can credit to Bellator - any errors in math, broken macros, or failed assumptions you can blame me. No guarantees or warrantees, real or implied.

Bellator's Paladin Spreadsheet as updated by Exemplar


Please PM me any errors you find. If anyone cares to add mail and leather gear, I'd love to have that, I just haven't gotten to it.

 

Leonti

Interested in how reaction "latency" (user+connection in summary) would possibly affect FCFS priorization, I coded a simple simulation program.

Assumptions used:

- latency affects GCD and every skill as absolute delay (e.g.: JoB CD = JoB base CD + latency)
- calculated damage is based on values extracted from Redcapes default spreadsheet (e.g. CS damage = ~3365)
- judgement used: JoB
- fight time 300 seconds
- no mana return simulated, no mana issues considered
- this simulation doesn't account any side effects (e.g. missing judge effects when not starting with an judgement)
- used abilities: J:JoB, CS:CrusaderStrike, C:Consecration, DS: DivineStorm
- used cooldowns: GCD = 1.5sec, CS = 6sec, DS = 10sec, CONS = 10sec, JUDGEMENT = 8sec

Results:

Latency resolution 250ms:



Latency resolution 100ms:



x-axis: latency in ms
y-axis: damage summary

From a abstract scientific view the biggest surprise is: based on your reaction time and connection latency, an individual priorization might be more efficient, in theory.

Have fun.

Updated:

- corrected GCD
- added second resolution

Leonti - "Klein, fein und gemein."
Proud Member of Kavar Grunas Bar

Celeon - Armory Link
Leonti - Armory Link

 

Questioner

That's a really neat looking graph, and I doubt this point will change the overall results significantly, but isn't our base GCD 1.5 seconds?

 

Leonti

Good point, which I've missed! I'll update the results tomorrow.

Leonti - "Klein, fein und gemein."
Proud Member of Kavar Grunas Bar

Celeon - Armory Link
Leonti - Armory Link

 

Aramul

Am I correct in seeing the lowest latency listed as 500 ms? That seems a bit excessive.

 

Leonti

First I thought the same, but if I'm right Redcapes values are based on simliar delay assumptions. It's an mixed value, depending on an average 100ms connection latency, and 300-400ms reaction time, assuming you don't have learned your rotation and know it inside out. So watching your CD Addon, 300-400ms would be a good reaction time, i think. For samity i'll add a lower value tomorrow.

Leonti - "Klein, fein und gemein."
Proud Member of Kavar Grunas Bar

Celeon - Armory Link
Leonti - Armory Link

 

Aramul

I think a range of 100ms to 1000ms would be much more interesting and useful. Output for average delays of a full second or higher don't really say anything exciting. If your latency (or, heaven forbid, reaction time) is that bad, you can pretty much throw maximizing your dps out the window.

 

Larre

Sorry for doubleposting this question, but I didnt get a straight answer the last time i asked.
At least not what i saw, if I did then i apologize again and will indeed invest in some glasses.


Trinket question.


Emerald Boar with 2x27str JC gems, wich is 84 AP +12 AP from the bonus + 54 STRx1.15 x 2 = 124 + 96 = 220 Constant AP

And then the Mirror of truth.

And Darkmoon card greatness.

These are the 3 trinkets that i have. And i cant make up my mind here wich i should use.



The emerald boar is probably better than Mirror of truth socketed like this, yes. But do I save the mirror of truth and use the greatness card, and use 2 of them 27 str gems elsewhere in my gear to activate bonuses and what not.
Or do i save the emerald boar and use it together with the greatness card?

This is a tricky one for me, i hope anyone of you can open my eyes alittle bit when it comes to this.


Thanks.

/E

 

Leonti

The idea was not to cover only the fastest and best of us, in my opinion reaction times above a second and between five seconds are not so far away from reality and possible, perhaps not trough an entire fight, but in special situations.
So, since i don't like to discuss favors, I've decided to add a second graph, to please all.

Leonti - "Klein, fein und gemein."
Proud Member of Kavar Grunas Bar

Celeon - Armory Link
Leonti - Armory Link

 

Quozzy

You cannot compare items by saying that you are putting 27str gems in them. It's a given that you are going to put 3 of those gems into your gear somewhere, but for comparison sake you should think of them having 16str gems in instead.
Saying that, you could take the socket bonus into account if it is your plan to use the prismatic gems there.

With regards to comparing trinkets, Emerald Boar would be 32str and 96ap with the socket bonus (assuming prismatic gems).

The Darkmoon Card with a 45s internal cd and 100% proc chance averages at 190str.

The Mirror of Truth has 84crit and assuming 1ppm, 167ap average.

You can calculate the worth of those values using either your own weightings, or the ones at the start of this thread.

 

Mortimmer

Sorry to bring back a post from earlier on, but out of doubt to make [Titansteel Destroyer] or not I did the math and it still seems to come out on top a little bit over [Sword of Justice].

[Titansteel Destroyer]: 3,4x300 (speed) + 186,5x5,28 (wdps) + 124x1,68 (str) + 54x1,26 (hit) ~= 2281,7
[Sword of Justice]: 3,8x300 (speed) + 169,2x5,28 (wdps) + 86x1,68 (str) + 81x0,73 (crit) ~= 2237,8

That's with a 16 str gem and socket bonus included (correct me on the math if I'm wrong). For a weapon that is replaced rather fast when raiding, SoJ is a good choice I think. I'll be using the titansteel bars for the head instead.

And thanks Redcape, for the good work.

Cow ninjas will rule the world.
Looting DST in a PUG made my day.

 

Rukiia

I would say make the helm. It will probably last you longer and there are a lot of weapons available. You could just farm HOL heroic till [Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver] drops.

 

Kazekan

Is anyone else coming up with weird results on WoWhead? I'm using the same weights we've been using for the last couple weeks, but now that I take a closer look some things just don't add up. I went out to WoWhead today to verify which ring would be best when ignoring Hit rating (since currently I'm well over cap unfortunately), and came up with some odd results. I have [Titanium Earthguard Ring] coming up above [Circle of Death], and although it does definitely have more strength, the crit and expertise should more than make up for that. Maybe I'm doing my napkin math wrong or something but:

[Titanium Earthguard Ring] 66x168.09 = 11093.94

[Circle of Death] (50x168.09) + (49x73.56) + (33x79.55) = 14633.94

How on earth does WoWhead think that [Titanium Earthguard Ring] is better? Am I just horribly misunderstanding the relative values put on stats or something, or is my math just horribly incorrect somehow. I'm pretty sure it's basically 168.09 "points" per 100 str, meaning it would basically be 1.6809 "points" per 1 STR, but in my mind it should still work to say 168.09 per 1 str since it's all relative.

If I'm right, I guess I should do some napkin math on my Pawn values as well to make sure that everything there is OK too, otherwise that would pretty much suck...

Thanks much

Edit: Er, trying to fix the weird "huge and bold" print issues I'm having with this post... sorry. I guess it was the <space> "=" sign I had after the links... how odd!

 

Merovengian

Try using lootrank, it may be a bug within the WoWhead system

 

Kazekan

Aye, much better, thank you. I guess I'll be using that for the time being then! I'm just glad I wasn't being dumb ><

Here's a link to lootrank with all the values put in (minus the hit) if anyone wants an easy way to get to it.

LootRank - Hit at 0

 

• frmorrison

It appears you are using melee hit rating, melee crit rating, etc, because your results are only adding up strength and not the other stats.

Change those ratings to hit rating, crit rating, and haste rating, etc. and the items will show up correctly, or use Rawr.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Protagoras

Is Rawr currently valuing hit up to 9%? It seems like it might be, which can make its upgrade recommendations somewhat misleading since we've established that the hit cap is certainly somewhere below that for most, if not all, of us.

 

Valerys

Actually Rawr seems to be undervaluing hit if anything. It keeps showing gear upgrades for me that would reduce my total hit significantly.

 

Exemplar

I haven't run Rawr, but I'm inclined to believe its results. My spreadsheet also shows maximum DPS is below the hit cap.

Hit cap is no longer necessary for maximum DPS assuming mana is not an issue. You as a human being need to temper the results from Rawr or a spreadsheet. Missed judgement means no JotW mana refund, so being significantly below the hit cap can decrease your Damage Per Minute as your uber DPS drops to 0 when you run OOM.

If mana is indeed a non-issue and missed judgements not a worry, some gear will make you hit that much harder that entirely missing a few attacks is still a gain in DPS. I know this is counter-intuitive, but it's what Redcape noticed back in the old Ret thread when he was starting crunching numbers pre-3.0. Hit is no longer the best stat before cap.

 

bluerage

I am currently a little confused as to which trinket I should use in my #2 spot. I am getting conflicting information between the latest Rawr and Maxdps.com. The choice is between [Loatheb's Shadow] (which Maxdps is rating as the higher of the 2) and [Grim Toll] (which Rawr is rating higher). Grim's Toll puts me insanely over the hit cap, while without it I have a 265 hit rating. Does anyone have any idea which trinket is actually better for us? My gut feeling is Loatheb's Shadow but I don't want to assume I am correct.

 

Questioner

I could be wrong but I do believe the "which gear is better for me posts" are generally frowned upon in these forums.
That being said, using the values posted in the pawn thread, we can evaluate the non-special part of the trinket as follows:

CritRating=0.736
HitRating=1.18

Hit Cap = 295 - 265 = 30 useful hit * 1.18 = 35.4
Crit Rating = 0.736 * 84 = 61.8

A quick estimate of the special parts of the proc

ArmorPenetration=0.37 * 612 * 2.3 (average procs every two minutes) = 520.8
Ap=0.664 * 670 = 444.8

Adding those two together puts grim toll slightly ahead. However, Loatheb's Shadow can be deliberately stacked with Avenging Wrath and Bloodlust which will generally improves its position. The only part of this math I am unsure of is if ArmorPenetration pawn value is in Rating or not, as all teh others specifically state rating.

 

bluerage

There has been several discussions in here as to which pieces of gear are more ideal for us in general. This is why I posted this here in hopes of helping the others that may be faced with the same question. If I was in error I do apologize.

 

Mortimmer

Mind that [Grim Toll]'s proc lasts 10 seconds while [Loatheb's Shadow] lasts 20 seconds. That gives Grim 23 second uptime over 2 minutes and the shadow 20.

Grim: 0,37 * 612 / 60 * 23 ~= 86,8
Loatheb's: 0,664 * 670 / 60 * 20 ~= 148,3

Which would make Loatheb's Shadow the clear winner (with the thought of Grim Toll only giving 30 meaningful hit).

Cow ninjas will rule the world.
Looting DST in a PUG made my day.

 

Protagoras

I'm confused now, because Rawr is showing [Grim Toll] as an upgrade over both [Loatheb's Shadow] and [Bandit's Insignia] across multiple variations of "ideal" gearsets, even once the hit cap has been reached and surpassed by other items. Is anyone else seeing this?

 

• frmorrison

Rawr doesn't know that the true hit cap is 8%, and less if you have some other bugs, so that is why it is ranked high for you. Sometimes Rawr messes up, but most of the time it is good.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.