I need someone to look over my numbers and make sure I'm looking at this correctly concerning BoH vs The Jawbone for a Human using weightstones (currently weightsones work while sharpening stones do not.)
According to the first post by Redcape, when using SoTM your DPS return on 100 of each stat is as follows:
The Jawbone
206.9 DPS (adding in weightstone +12 damage)
101 Str
99 Haste
91 Expertise rating (adding in Human racial)
14 Crit rating (adding in weightstone +14 crit rating)
I'm coming out with 1414.09 DPS
Betrayer of Humanity
222.9 DPS
61 Agi
81 Crit rating
57 Haste
226 AP
I'm coming up with 1484.62 DPS
I thought that it would be a closer gap but according to my numbers BoH is about 70 dps ahead of the The Jawbone even with my racial and using the weightstones. Anyone have any thoughts? Are my numbers correct?
I'm mostly a scrub at this numbers thing.. So would being a Dorf change this in favour or the jawbone or still BoH on top?
You don't have to be very good with numbers to figure out that taking 91 Expertise rating from jawbone would further the dps gap between them.
edit: btw human racial is worth 74.62 in Shldnhearth's numbers
Always remember to add in weapon speed too. Often your choices have the same speed, but when they do not the speed is a massive factor in overall weapon dps contribution. I suggest just downloading my spreadsheet and entering the weapons in the test fields (also making sure to alter the base expertise field as appropriate) and it will tell you exactly which one is better. You will need to account for the weighstone, but you can add dps to the weapon and add crit rating as necessary to make that work.
Does anyone know if the issue with weightstones working is fixed in the upcoming patch? They obviously should not, but I can build in a weightstone section if they are going to be around awhile.
Always remember to add in weapon speed too. Often your choices have the same speed, but when they do not the speed is a massive factor in overall weapon dps contribution. I suggest just downloading my spreadsheet and entering the weapons in the test fields (also making sure to alter the base expertise field as appropriate) and it will tell you exactly which one is better. You will need to account for the weighstone, but you can add dps to the weapon and add crit rating as necessary to make that work.
Does anyone know if the issue with weightstones working is fixed in the upcoming patch? They obviously should not, but I can build in a weightstone section if they are going to be around awhile.
Bug appears to still exist post-patch, I can't find any source indicating otherwise.
So, with it being generally accepted that 4pc bonus is worth it going in to Ulduar. This is the gear list I came up with, and will be aiming for. Any gear swaps I may have missed, I would love to see.
Swap Valorous helm for Obsidian Greathelm, and Undiminished chest for Valorous chest. Remember, hit capping is not so important for us these days. Certainly you do not need to eat expertise food to cap it either.
EDIT: Also swap boots for Melancholy Sabatons for higher dps.
He specifically stated he wanted the 4 piece bonus. If he takes your suggestion and changes the chest and helm, he can't get 4 piece.
Read again what he said, he recommends using the valorous chestpiece over the valorous helmet. That would still give him gloves, leggs, chestpiece and shoulders. 4 pieces.
I'll agree we shouldnt go out of our way in order to hit cap, but given the gear options I listed, I would much rather actually obtain cap and never have to deal with missing. Certainly, given proper RNG, without hitcap you can parse higher than normal, but it goes the other way as well. I'd rather stay consistent, as I would hope most do as well.
You say you agree, but then go on to disagree. You are arguing from an emotional position.
I said I would not go out of my way to get cap (gems, enchants), but given our gear options (the ones I listed), it would be asinine to not cap.
edit: I'm too mean.
The problem is DPS per piece in your gear list is lower than what it could be even when not hit capped. Melancholy Sabatons, Favor of the Dragon Queen, and ESPECIALLY Bracers of Unrelenting Attacks given that it has a nice chunk of hit on it provide higher DPS per slot.
Granted, not being hit capped means that RNG can work against you, but the probability of that is unlikely. And the fact is the VERY few times that being 2% under cap works against you is no comparison to how often it will work for you.
I can't even fathom the amount of stupid in that statement.
Such unnecessary hostility, and yet when plugged into Rawr:
Fool's Trial is valued at 168.85 DPS while Favor of the Dragon Queen with Bold Dragon's Eye is valued at 223.35 DPS; a difference of 54.5 DPS.
Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress with a Bold Scarlet Ruby and Greater Assault is valued at 207.61 DPS while Bracers of Unrelenting Attack with a Bold Dragon's Eye, Bold Scarlet Ruby, and Greater Assault is valued at 244.53 DPS; a difference of 36.92 DPS.
Bladed Steelboots with Icewalker is valued at 218.01 DPS while Melancholy Sabatons with Icewalker is valued at 270.36 DPS; a difference of 52.35 DPS.
The gear set you've listed is running at a 143.77 DPS deficit by comparison to what it could be. By all means, disagree, but please give evidence before you go an attack this post too.
I understand where that comment comes from, but, when you get down to it, that's ret TBC thinking... Most other classes need to worry about capping because, at low item point values, hit/expertise/whathaveyou is, per point, worth more DPS then str/AP/crit. In WotLK, retribution is no longer working under those conditions.
DPS per piece isn't a useful metric when you're trying to cap but not exceed hit, cap but not exceed expertise and all the while maximize str/AP/crit. To achieve your maximum output currently however, you don't actually need to balance any of that. If hit/exp were more prevalent on our tier pieces, not exceeding the caps might be an issue, but the way things are now, it really shouldn't be unless you wear tons of leather gear. Additionally, some pieces are actually outstanding because of a great spread of attributes allowing a higher total item point value (e.g. Surge -Needle Ring).
Coming back to your gear suggestions: comparing it to my personal end game gear list I end up losing 270DPS or so. That's with Obsidian Greathelm, Favor of the Dragon Queen, T7.25 chestpiece, bracers of unrelenting attack, melancholy sabatons, surge-needle ring (over Circle of Death) and the mirror of truth.
EDIT: to add that using expertise food is strictly inferior to str food... always.
Regardless of whether we assume that 4p t7 is a dps upgrade regardless of what other pieces are used in those slots, or merely preferring it for other reasons we still want to get the most dps out of the total of 4t7+1anything in those five slots, no? I haven't really seen any detailed analysis on it; most people seem to use Obsidian Greathelm as their fifth item even if Frosted Adroit Handguards makes for a bigger increase in dps value using Redcape's numbers. Is it because of the expertise?
Personally, I'm currently sitting on Valorous chest/shoulders/helm/legs and Heroes' glvoes, using Spiked Titansteel Helm. My plan was to replace the Heroes' gloves with the Frosted Adroit ones and use the Valorous helm with that to maintain the set bonus but I've recently been thinking of going for the Obsidian Greathelm (+Valorous gloves) instead for the sake of getting some more expertise which is a bit low on the personal wishlist set I put together a while ago.
I'm honestly not sure which alternative would end up doing more damage in an optimal situation but getting more expertise at a theoretical slight dps loss is honestly quite tempting just for the sake of convenience and reducing RNG. I certainly don't feel much need for maximising DPS to death and getting single digit increases out of it in my own fairly casual guild since I've always been high on meters and don't expect that to change anytime soon.
[08:16:24] [W From] [72:Jukaj]: :P ??
[08:18:04] [W To] [72:Jukaj]: May I ask you, what is your opinion on narwhals?
[08:18:05] Jukaj is ignoring you.
I don't see Frosted Adroit Handguards as a greater DPS increase... the difference is small though, something like 7DPS or so. Mind you it does shift me from 4% to hit, to 7% to hit... so from a peace of mind point of view, the extra hit might be worth the 7DPS downgrade. Belt of the Tortured over Razuvious Girdle is another slot where I see a small DPS downgrade granting a substantial amount of hit (-1DPS or so for +1.5% hit), and if you go that route, Frosted Adroit Handguards + T7 helm put you way over hit cap.
Is that using Rawr's numbers, Arthaal? I'm using Redcape's numbers (plugged into lootrank for viewability), the difference in using Frosted Adroit Handguards (score: 28110) over t7.5 gloves (score: 19983) a three times greater difference than using Obsidian Greathelm (score: 33116) over t7.5 helm (score: 30549).
My wishlist gear is at 7.92% total hit, for the record.
[08:16:24] [W From] [72:Jukaj]: :P ??
[08:18:04] [W To] [72:Jukaj]: May I ask you, what is your opinion on narwhals?
[08:18:05] Jukaj is ignoring you.
Yeap, that was using Rawr... do you equip all the gear, fill out the the spreadsheet, obtain stat values and use those in lootrank to figure out upgrades?
The only issue I could imagine is with using a static weighing with items that so obviously trade DPS stat for hit while hovering around the cap, something Rawr can handle, while static weighings cannot. But like you said, both sets end up shy of the cap, so I'm at a loss.
So, with it being generally accepted that 4pc bonus is worth it going in to Ulduar. This is the gear list I came up with, and will be aiming for. Any gear swaps I may have missed, I would love to see.
With this set, I will be hit capped from gear, and expertise capped with [Item not found!].
Any comments welcome, and appreciated
I've got a similar wishlist to this, only thing I would change is Collar of Dissolution, Bracers of Lost Sentiment and Cloak of Mastery to achieve hit and expertise cap, but many have said that reaching exp cap isn't important because judgments are 25-28% of our overall damage. I suppose with my 3 changes you can eat strength food to make up for any loss in dps.
I suppose with my 3 changes you can eat strength food to make up for any loss in dps.
You should always be eating str food, regardless of what other stats you do or don't have. It doesn't "make up" for anything. In the example you quoted, it is substantially better to eat str food and just not be exp capped, than to eat exp food.
But nevertheless, there is currently no food that beats out the fish feast as the very best food ingame for us.
If you have enough time / money you should always use this, your raidgroup will also be very happy if you share it, because it is simply the best food ingame for nearly any class.
But nevertheless, there is currently no food that beats out the fish feast as the very best food ingame for us.
If you have enough time / money you should always use this, your raidgroup will also be very happy if you share it, because it is simply the best food ingame for nearly any class.
[Dragonfin Filet] gives us 101 AP (with Kings) and 30 SP. I'm pretty sure 21 AP beats 16 SP for us.
01/18/09, 12:11 AM
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