Just to be a nit-picker: if one has 3/3 SoL, the AP from Fish Feast will provide 13.8 (call it 14) SP. Thus the actual DPS gain from Fish Feast is:
80*0.68 DPS + 60*0.23 DPS = 68.2 DPS
0.2 DPS less - i.e. functionally identical.
No, now you have double dipped your AP value. Download the spreadsheet and you will realize, that these coefficients are already based on a common retribution raidspec (max dps, i.e. 0/10/61) and on a fully debuffed bosslevel mob/fully buffed retribution paladin.
Lowering the value of [Sheath of Light – 30] to zero (to deactivate it in the spreadsheet), AP is worth ~60 DPS per 100 points and strength 152 DPS.
Nothing has really changed, because SoL is affecting both AP and strength.
I already changed the sheet. I will reissue a new version with 1-2 minor changes and also include whatever the patch actually ends up bringing as soon as 3.08 actually goes live. The current version includes Vengeance stacking to 5, since that was announced. Of course, that value is trivial for anyone to change, just make the number in the Vengeance entry 9 or 15 as you wish.
Are you still planning to release a new version? And will that new sheet have the the default value for judgment set to the tier bonus -1s or are you planning a to add it to the "Special Benefits" column? Thanks, it's a big help.
I've always been retarded at using excel or other spreadsheets. But it was still mighty fun to mess around with the DPS calculator..
I've recently gotten hold of the wraith spear (still using the titansteel destroyer, ya, i suck i know...). I've heard comments previously from other forums that the spear is better dps if you are already hit capped from other gear, while the destroyer is better if you are still not hit capped from the rest of your gear.
However, by mashing in some numbers into this calculator, it seems that the spear does better dps even if I'm not hit capped at all. Is this really true or am i just using the spreadsheet wrongly?
I've also tried it out on 25men Naxx runs, granted the group composition was very different from my previous run with the destroyer, but i did not see much dps increase at all, sometimes the dps actually dropped compared to my previous run. The discrepancies with my dps i attribute it to different raid make up, but i was just wondering which weapon is really better for me? Shd i stick to the destroyer or the spear?
Also, I recently got hold of the undiminished battleplate. Over on MaxDPS.com - World of Warcraft Gear Rankings - News it is supposed to be the best-in-slot chest piece, but on mashing with the spreadsheet there was actually a dps loss compared to my heroes' redemption chestpiece. Again, is it true or am i using it wrongly?
So sry to post here asking these stupid questions, but I really like the spreadsheet, just that i'm not sure if i'm using it all wrong. Many thx in advance!
Wraith Spear is going to be better in all cases (hit capped or not) due to the 3.7 speed and yes, this is despite losing the human racial as well.
Regarding your chest question, your problem lies with the hit cap. Undimished Battleplate is strictly better if you use all the stats it provides. If it's taking you over the hit cap (or expertise cap) then the T7.10 chest will be better. Remember the spreadsheet now adjust for caps, this is probably why it's telling you not to go for Undimished Battleplate.
Additionally if you're missing one piece to get T7 4 set bonus the T7 chest is superior in all cases.
Still 2 pieces to my 4-piece bonus, so i decided to pop on the undimished battleplate.
Even though i was a little over hit cap (about 8.2% to hit or so) after equiping the battleplate, and no where near expertise capped, i found my dps actually dropped. I'm not sure that this can be solely explained by me wasting some of the hit ratings provided by the gear by being over hit capped. Is it due to the confounding factor of raid make up again? Could be, but i'm just not sure the battleplate is truly a best-in-slot item.
I'm no math guru, but simply looking at the item comparison between the battleplate and my heroes' redemption chest piece (with 2 bold scarlet rubies)
Undimished battleplate:
100 str
100 hit rating
53 expertise
Heroes' redemption
105str
74 crit rating
45 haste
I'm not sure that the hit and expertise rating is really an improvement over the 5str, lots of crit and haste, AND the slight damage bonus from 2-piece T7.
Just taking into considering that I only have the T7 chest and T7.5 gloves, would it be really worth it to use the undimished battleplate over my T7 so long as I remain under hit and exp cap? Is my drop in dps simply due to poor raid makeup and being slightly over hit cap?
DPS is not an exact science, there's a fairly large RNG factor involved, all you can predict is an average. It's impossible for anyone to predict why you did worse on that specific try (especially if you aren't guaranteeing equal conditions/buffs/debuffs or providing a WWS log) and you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference of one single item slot, especially considering they're very close.
So yes, raid make up (buffs/debuffs) or simply luck/RNG is your culprit. Also if you usually have a goat (draenei) in your party then you're 1.2% over hit cap (at 8.2% from gear), which would translate into the non-set chest being significantly worse as all the hit rating is being wasted.
Since I've been talking about Frosted Adroit + t7.5 helm being > t7.5 gloves + Obsidian Greathelm for some time I went into the spreadsheet and plugged some fairly acceptable wishlist gear and tried them out just to make sure since it came up during a discussion elsewhere - it seems I was wrong. Obsidian Greathelm as non-t7 piece was a ~21 dps upgrade (assuming no special bonuses like profession unique ones).
I'm actually quite relieved I was wrong, since I've been feeling low on expertise for a while. I'm also quite at a loss as to why it turned out the way it did in the spreadsheet as the difference in static score is very large and as already metioned, caps were not an issue in either case.
As for leather in general, Dawnwalkers were still a fair upgrade over Bladed Steelboots.
[08:16:24] [W From] [72:Jukaj]: :P ??
[08:18:04] [W To] [72:Jukaj]: May I ask you, what is your opinion on narwhals?
[08:18:05] Jukaj is ignoring you.
Here's an interesting one. Using the numbers from Redcapes dps posted in the PAWN thread input into wowhead's weight scaler (NOT their default ret pally numbers), I am seeing Spiked Titansteel being ranked approx. 2% above Obsidian Greathelm. The numbers would change oh so slightly as I would be using an Enchanted Tear in the socket, but I don't see it being a large margin, as it would actually improve spiked's ranking. Is anyone else getting numbers anywhere near there?
For further information: By far the biggest margin in difference is showing in the glove slot, where Frosted Androit is ranked 38.66 (even crude discolored is at 35.76) while valor is 27.58.
The only thing I can think of is that Redcapes' scaling numbers aren't matching his spreadsheet's calculations. It is kind of funny that I will be posting this right after a comment about Obsidian Greathelm being matched again.
I've been looking at the same on lootrank, Questioner. It's why I was on about Frosted Adroit in the first place, since it was the biggest upgrade to replace one part of t7 with in any slot according to static weights.
Spiked Titansteel shows as a downgrade when plugged into the spreadsheet thought, similar to the fall from grace of Frosted Adroit.
[08:16:24] [W From] [72:Jukaj]: :P ??
[08:18:04] [W To] [72:Jukaj]: May I ask you, what is your opinion on narwhals?
[08:18:05] Jukaj is ignoring you.
I would be using an Enchanted Tear in the socket, but I don't see it being a large margin, as it would actually improve spiked's ranking. Is anyone else getting numbers anywhere near there?
The only thing I can think of is that Redcapes' scaling numbers aren't matching his spreadsheet's calculations. It is kind of funny that I will be posting this right after a comment about Obsidian Greathelm being matched again.
As I mentioned in the Pawn thread I made, using static weights entirely for your gear decisions is a poor decision. Since weights change as you get other gear and buffs, and static weights cannot account for set bonuses. It is just there for a quick calculation to see if an item is a decent upgrade.
Unless you had barely had other hit gear, Obsidian is always better. Even if those numbers were close to accurate, I would use Obsidian solely because of the extra ~1000 HP it gives.
frmorrison, I think that we're more getting at wondering why there's such a massive discrepancy between the static weights (in the case of picking an item to complement 4xt7 which sounds like a fairly reasonable use for them) and the actual dps estimate with all gear plugged into the spreadsheet.
[08:16:24] [W From] [72:Jukaj]: :P ??
[08:18:04] [W To] [72:Jukaj]: May I ask you, what is your opinion on narwhals?
[08:18:05] Jukaj is ignoring you.
I finally downloaded the spreadsheet and tried something things out. I don't think the static weighting was lying. I found that in most cases, Spiked Ttiansteel helm will be within 5 dps of the Obsidian Greathelm (For my raid, 5654 vs 5659). When using max dps pieces like Betrayer, Favor of the Dragon Queen and Kel's cloak, you will be absolutely NOWHERE close to the hit or expertise caps. The best dps set I came up with includes the Iron-Spring Jumpers, which put it over 30 dps ahead of any of other combo, and since it has such massive hit, it is best enchanted icewalekr and then paired with the Obsidian Greathelm. This is the ONLY case where you could go over the hitcap using the Spiked.
To me, it is most certainly not worth going for the helm until everyone else has it as it is such a tiny (< 5 dps) upgrade compared to some other pieces. However, it is still better than swapping out any other offset piece such as frosted hanguards, and Spiked titansteel is better than those, too.
Edit: With the Dranei Aura, Obsidian is a much larger upgrade that without.
Are you still planning to release a new version? And will that new sheet have the the default value for judgment set to the tier bonus -1s or are you planning a to add it to the "Special Benefits" column? Thanks, it's a big help.
I certainly am going to release a new version, but I don't want to do so until we actually know what was done to JoW. Right now the proc rates look massively higher, but I don't have good information as to what they actually are. It should have a fairly substantial impact on ret paladin mana regen, so I want to put out the new sheet when those values are understood.
If anyone has done or wants to do testing on JoW proc rates, please post the information here so I can get the new version out.
I will be putting in the changes to vengeance, JoW, RV, and also changing the implementation of AW and adding in a heroism section. There is a possibility of changing the expertise calculations to reflect the actual .25% granularity in the game, but since that would actually require a bunch of recoding to fix seemingly unrelated things I may not put that in, not sure how much time I will have.
I've recently gotten hold of the wraith spear (still using the titansteel destroyer, ya, i suck i know...). I've heard comments previously from other forums that the spear is better dps if you are already hit capped from other gear, while the destroyer is better if you are still not hit capped from the rest of your gear.
However, by mashing in some numbers into this calculator, it seems that the spear does better dps even if I'm not hit capped at all. Is this really true or am i just using the spreadsheet wrongly?
I'm currently working on the weighting assigned by the spreadsheet when all of our best-in-slot gear is equipped. While this isn't ideal for people who simply want to know if x item is better than y item with their current, I think it's probably the optimal way gear oneself. This will always eliminate issues resulting from Rawr or the spreadsheet weighting items higher or lower as you dance around the hit cap while gearing. Assuming I haven't slipped up on entering the numbers, this is the weighting I came up with as a Draenei with JC + BS:
That's exactly the same as the list I use, except I prefer the Iron Spring Jumpers over Melancholy Sabatons. If the DPS gap is very small, I'd rather go with the piece that gets me closer to the hit cap. Plus, using your stat weightings listed, the Iron Spring Jumpers flat out have a higher DPS number anyways.
Edit: Actually, perhaps the Iron Spring Jumpers are very slightly less DPS due to your lower hit cap as a Draenei? Still, I'd definitely go with being hitcapped over missing 2% of the time to gain a measly 3 DPS (unless my back-of-the-envelope math is way off there)
[Dawnwalkers] still come out better than any plate boots using that modified weighting. They may not have strength on them, but at least they don't have any ArPen either.
I have just published the newest version of the spreadsheet, see the first post of this thread. Two things of note beyond what you see there:
I did not change the way expertise is calculated. In game expertise is only useful when you get a full .25%, additional fractions are lost. The sheet does not yet take that into account for various reasons related mostly to the way I initially coded it and the annoyance of rewriting huge chunks of things. I will eventually try to rectify this.
JoW is modeled as a 43% proc chance. I currently believe from some testing that this is a completely incorrect model and that JoW procs dramatically more than that from autoattacks and dramatically less from strikes/spells. However, from substantial checking of WWS parses 43% models the amount of mana returned quite reasonably, so until the JoW mechanic is better understood this will suffice as a fine approximation.
Enjoy, and send me a tell if you find any errors/omissions or have suggestions for improvement.
The best Glyph setup is Judgement, Consecration, HoW.
While I agree that HoW is likely a better glyph than Crusader Strike, why isn't the best third glyph considered to be Avenging Wrath? I'm not saying it's a great glyph by any means, but it does seem to be the only third glyph that actually is a [potential] dps increase. To me, neither CS nor HoW are useful at all really--I have no mana problems on any fight in current content and have been using Glyph of Command in the third slot for when I solo or PVP for a while now.
While I agree that HoW is likely a better glyph than Crusader Strike, why isn't the best third glyph considered to be Avenging Wrath? I'm not saying it's a great glyph by any means, but it does seem to be the only third glyph that actually is a [potential] dps increase. To me, neither CS nor HoW are useful at all really--I have no mana problems on any fight in current content and have been using Glyph of Command in the third slot for when I solo or PVP for a while now.
This has been done to death. The AW glyph is a extremely minor dps increase in the best of situations. If you have any mana issues at all, either of the other glyphs, CS or HoW, are better. There are only mediocre choices for the third glyph slot, and you aren't going to go wrong choosing any of them.
AW is at best a 20 dps increase, assuming 3 second HoW doesn't drain all your mana.
Having CS or HoW glyph increases your "quality of life", since you have more mana to cast our utility Hand spells and instant FoL as well as less need to eat mana food.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
For the record I assumed that a best-in-slot item set would consist of:
After fiddling with Redcape's newest spreadsheet I'm coming out with the best possible numbers (Including the Draenei bonus and JC bonus) using this list if you swap Dawnwalkers and Belt of the Tortured over Girdle of Chivalry and Melancholy Sabatons. So if you can roll on leather, that is the way to go.
For those fiddling with best in slot lists, what gem do you put in the shoulders? Just a straight 16 and lose the set bonus or is there a currently superior alternative?
I've have one of the prismatic JC gems in that slot, though if I wasn't a JC I would probably go with a relentless earthsiege, a tear in the helm, and an str in every other available slot. That is unless you are adamant about having an extra 12 stam.
Since I just became a chef on my ret paladin I have become curious about comparing fish feast to dragonfin fillet. Fish feast is 80AP, 46SP, and 40 Stamina. Dragonfin is 40 Str. and 40 stamina.
As far as I know with the divine strength talent and kings 40 Str. becomes 50.6 Str. 40x1.15=46x1.10=s 50.6. I do not know if this is rounded up. Would I be wrong in saying this is 101 attack power?
I looked here and in the Pawn thread but was unable to find a stat weight for spellpower for retribution paladins. Therefore I do not know how to calculate ~20AP vs. 46SP. Does anyone know which would be more valuable. The spellpower would increase the damage on SoB/M, judgments, consecrate, hammer of wrath, exorcism, and holy wrath. Judgment of light would heal more.
I like to fish, so I don't really mind farming the matz for either. I'm really curious which is best for me. Also, I suspect that while everyone in my guild is suppossed to eat a food buff, for one reason or another people might not always do it, so setting out a fish feast could have other benefits as well.
I'm unable to connect to Curse.com for some reason, which is making it difficult to download a damage meter, so at this point I'm not really able to test this. So I'm looking for some help.
01/28/09, 5:33 AM
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