Got around to reupdating my stats for the first time in a few months on Redcape's dps spreadsheet when I noticed something odd. Most of my gear is not BiS, but that's largely due to poor drops. 12 clears of 25man kel, zero Betrayer drops. Several 3d kills, 0 greathelms etc. But when I plug the numbers into the spreadsheet, i get only a 2dps for an upgrade from the titansteel helm. I'm using a +27 str gem in both slots, so i'd be picking up the slot bonus either way. I know the merits of the titansteel helm have been touted before, but this seems like a higher performance than I had even thought. Is it just something odd about the rest of my gear allocation? Also, when adjusted for the buffs we typically have on farm content (typically no +10% ap or flask/food or 20% melee haste) i'm still hovering around 4000-4200dps on a fight like patch standing still and just pew pew, while the spreadsheet says closer to 4900. If it's my play that's fine, WWS should be able to help me out, but I was wondering if other people were getting to within 5% of the spreadsheet numbers for dps?
Got around to reupdating my stats for the first time in a few months on Redcape's dps spreadsheet when I noticed something odd. Most of my gear is not BiS, but that's largely due to poor drops. 12 clears of 25man kel, zero Betrayer drops. Several 3d kills, 0 greathelms etc. But when I plug the numbers into the spreadsheet, i get only a 2dps for an upgrade from the titansteel helm. I'm using a +27 str gem in both slots, so i'd be picking up the slot bonus either way. I know the merits of the titansteel helm have been touted before, but this seems like a higher performance than I had even thought. Is it just something odd about the rest of my gear allocation? Also, when adjusted for the buffs we typically have on farm content (typically no +10% ap or flask/food or 20% melee haste) i'm still hovering around 4000-4200dps on a fight like patch standing still and just pew pew, while the spreadsheet says closer to 4900. If it's my play that's fine, WWS should be able to help me out, but I was wondering if other people were getting to within 5% of the spreadsheet numbers for dps?
I usually am pretty close to the dps listed on the spreadsheet but any number of factors can throw it off. Little changes such as base stats or even misadding a stat could contribute, but most likely, and what I suspect your problem can be attributed to, is server lag. Even a 300 ms latency or a lower fps can cut dps off from the potential. That is my guess on why you aren't getting the dps you should be seeing.
A nice wws would help out yes. Also are you/ your raid managing Bloodlust+AW for full benefit I would assume yes but sometimes we overshoot it and have Lust still up when the boss dies for example. If you have a bit of lag or your rotation gets slightly messed up that can end up causing you some troubles.
The Spreadsheet is Ideal situation. You can beat the RNG and get a good crit streak, or have Greatness + MoT + Zerk proc for Lust and wings.
You need to remember that my spreadsheet shows your damage against 1 target with zero interruption, zero mistakes and perfect buffs. If you have not adjusted the buffs properly you will see errors, also if you take a few seconds to get into the fight, miss a button, are slow on response time, etc. you will see substantial losses.
The sheet isn't actually designed to tell you how much damage you will do. It is designed to tell you how good stats are relative to each other so you can decide on gear. It does that very well, and even if you are sitting at 2k dps below what the sheet says the gear information it provides is still very relevant. Of course, if you are actually 2k dps off the theoretical value you probably suck incredibly or your raid is missing vital buffs and you didn't account for that.
Of course, if you are actually 2k dps off the theoretical value you probably suck incredibly or your raid is missing vital buffs and you didn't account for that.
Couldn't stop laughing after this post. No no, my raid dps is fine-ish, not 2k under the spreadsheet was just curious how accurate the numbers were to real life raiding for other people. Was more surprised by the fact that the obsidian greathelm only showed a 2dps increase according to the spreadsheet over the titansteel helm.
Couldn't stop laughing after this post. No no, my raid dps is fine-ish, not 2k under the spreadsheet was just curious how accurate the numbers were to real life raiding for other people. Was more surprised by the fact that the obsidian greathelm only showed a 2dps increase according to the spreadsheet over the titansteel helm.
I wish I could say I could effectively use Redcape's spreadsheet, but spreadsheets confuse me to no end. We all have our strengths, but reading data in this method is not mine. However, I do use Rawr, and what you're probably seeing is how theoretical DPS on Rawr does not include latency or human error. WoW is a mathematics application game with RNG included. Rawr can predict based on the mathematics of the items you post how WoW will RNG the damage you do. The theoretical DPS is something you should get fairly close to on a fight like Patchwerk where no movement is needed. Do not take the theoretical DPS as something attainable. There's too many real world factors that make theoretical DPS impossible to achieve.
Like it was stated above, if you are 2k below, then yes you need to do some work on your game (or check for proper buffing). If you're only a few hundred DPS off, then you are probably doing just fine.
I wish I could say I could effectively use Redcape's spreadsheet, but spreadsheets confuse me to no end. We all have our strengths, but reading data in this method is not mine. However, I do use Rawr, and what you're probably seeing is how theoretical DPS on Rawr does not include latency or human error. WoW is a mathematics application game with RNG included. Rawr can predict based on the mathematics of the items you post how WoW will RNG the damage you do. The theoretical DPS is something you should get fairly close to on a fight like Patchwerk where no movement is needed. Do not take the theoretical DPS as something attainable. There's too many real world factors that make theoretical DPS impossible to achieve.
Like it was stated above, if you are 2k below, then yes you need to do some work on your game (or check for proper buffing). If you're only a few hundred DPS off, then you are probably doing just fine.
You can actually make my sheet display the proper dps values for you if you want to do a bit of simple calculation. Take a patchwerk parse for you, figure out how many of each attack you squeezed in and divide to find out the effective delay on your abilities. Put those delays in instead of the delays my sheet has defaulted and it should give you an extremely accurate reading on where your damage should be. This might also be a real wakeup call if some of your abilities are not being used close to their listed cooldown, there might be a more effective rotation you can use.
So I finally got around to using WWS to parse a combat log. It Figures that the first time I do it, we have an enh shaman for the first time in a month, and i'm thinking about having to post this, so I brought down 5233dps, and the sheet says 5647dps. I do have one question about buffs on the sheet, and I feel dumb asking. But what is the raid debuff which increases physical dmg by 2%? Wow Web Stats
Currently, if an Arms Warrior has a bleed on the mob or if a Combat Rogue is poisoned something, you will get 2% more physical damage. Those buffs will be changed to 4% in 3.1.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Has anyone checked out the new release of Rawr? It appears to have fixed the issue with using the 4p tier bonus. I'm now noticing that if I had 3 pieces equipped it will suggest me to equip a 4th piece and an offset item instead of 2 off set items. I wanted to see which slot it recommended using my non-tier piece in and I was surprised when it came back with a vastly different setup than I was expecting that only used 2 tier pieces instead of 4. Rawr claims that this setup would increase my DPS by 100+ over the any setup I could find with 4p tier.
The optimize function works better and faster than before, and it understands that 4 piece is the best setup when I ran it. Also Exorcism and the new haste/armor pen is in there.
It also has a build gear list function under Optimize, so it gives you a list of the highest upgrade items.
The best setup for me was Leather chest from Maly25 + 4 Piece, and that is which a few different good "off-set" items checked to allow Rawr to check those.
Last edited by frmorrison : 03/15/09 at 10:36 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The optimize function works better and faster than before, and it understands that 4 piece is the best setup when I ran it. Also Exorcism and the new haste/armor pen is in there.
It also has a build gear list function under Optimize, so it gives you a list of the highest upgrade items.
The best setup for me was Leather chest from Maly25 + 4 Piece, and that is which a few different good "off-set" items checked to allow Rawr to check those.
What pieces of gear did you have available for it to select? The optimal gear set it gave me was:
Everything is gemmed with 16 str gems (ignored meta reqs), and it enchanted my boots with greater assault. Also had all 3 extra sockets selected. This set gives me 6013 Total DPS.
Also, when I enable 3.1 it immediately increased my DPS to 6198 without changing any settings. Running the optimizer again though, changed the following gear options which increased my DPS to 6264:
I'm getting the same results as Raencloud. The highest DPS I can configure in the current Rawr beta while using 4 piece is 6065 (with buffs, same str gem setup as Raen). The off-set piece in this setup is [Frosted Adroit Handguards].
Playing around with the 3.1 settings, it seems to give a high preference to 2 piece, but not as much to 4 piece, which is very strange.
I realized Fury of the Five Flights wasn't loaded in correctly. When I reloaded that trinket into the database, the optimal setup pre3.1 included fury instead of Mirror and also changed the bracers to [Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress], Greatring changed to [Surge Needle Ring] and boot enchant changed to Icewalker. The change bumped me up to 6095 DPS.
With 3.1 changes enabled, Fury was still the 2nd trinket choice, and the the only changes were gloves to Zelieks, wrists to Unrelenting Attack, and Ruthlessness to Greatring. Slightly different then before, but not much. The DPS went up to 6315 from before.
Still in both cases I am seeing 4piece as non-optimal. I am also disabling leather and mail gear options in all my tests.
One thing to keep in mind with Rawr is that it tracks capped stats. If a gearset hit caps you, icewalker, braceers of unrelenting attack, or surge needle will be devalued.
As to why it still may not be suggesting 4pc in 3.1, I'll look into that. It may genuinely not be that good due to the massive changes to haste, armor pen, and various ability changes.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I have noticed that when I enable 3.1 it seems to devalue the 4piece bonus. However, I still get results that indicate using more than 2 pieces, whether 3.1 is enabled or not, is a DPS loss, presumably because there is no real good way to hit/exp cap with the 4p bonus on. To hit cap you would need to use the non-set gloves, but according to Rawr (and the spreadsheet I believe), using Obsidian Greathelm and the tier gloves is a better way to go even though it doesn't hit cap you.
This isn't a great place to discuss rawr in my opinion however my results using the newest version are very different...
I have all the buffs enabled (ie best possible raid situation) this comes up with leather chest from malygos and 4 part t7.5 (JC gems in ring, neck and shoulders), Legs and helm have hit/str gem and Grim toll in trinket slot.
I also get a very good value for the 4 set so check your buffs and rotation (no clue how accurate a modeling it is on rotation but best seems to be HoW>J>Ex>DS=Cons>CS and 3 minutes for fight time (which is probably a bit short)
0.05% miss chance (using draenei buff)
0.67% dodge chance
4 set = 372dps
5% below 20% time gives me 6617dps(6565 without a draenei)
This is the first time ive not been able to come up with something better than the optimiser.
Last post in this thread about Rawr. Perhaps we need a Ret Module discussion thread?
Playing around with it a bit more, it seems the value of 4 piece is highly dependent on the percentage of time below 20% (less values 4p more) with 3.1 enabled. The other factor that affects 4p slightly is the position of Exo in the rotation; When it has a higher priority than CS, it values even the t7 10 man helm over Obsidian Greathelm to maintain 4 piece.
I think it would make more sense to have all spreadsheet/analysis-tools talk in one thread, rather than have to check on a handful of threads with very low activity (this thread is inactive most of the time for example) as well as to avoid the cross posting mess when the same thing is being discussed in multiple threads.
Being able to compare results from different tools in the same thread can lead to some healthy evaluation of tool quality. Just my input on the organization, though Redcape should ultimately make the call as the OP of this thread.
I think this is as good a place as any to discuss Ret, though if you guys want I'd be happy to make a new thread for it.
It was my understanding that the spreadsheet was considered the more accurate of the two, but due to the ease of use and pretty graphs a lot of people preferred Rawr since it was "accurate enough". It is the intention of both Endoscient and myself to get Rawr to place where it is just as accurate as the spreadsheet, and as such I think this is really the ideal place to discuss issues with it... perhaps by some wierd chance we may help each other.
Also Redcape, excellent work on the spreadsheet!
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I also get a very good value for the 4 set so check your buffs and rotation (no clue how accurate a modeling it is on rotation but best seems to be HoW>J>Ex>DS=Cons>CS and 3 minutes for fight time (which is probably a bit short)
How did you get this rotation? When I change positions on the rotation no matter what options are selected I always show Judgement > Hammer of Wrath = Crusader Strike > Consecration > Divine Storm > Exorcism. If I make any changes to this I always show my DPS dropping.
The only change that happens is when I have the Venture Co. Libram equipped I see a 3 DPS increase for DS > Cons.
Also, sepirions results are signaling "bug" to me. I'm not sure why CS or Exorcism would have any effect on the value of the 4p. It should have some correlation to Judgements position in the rotation, not CS or exorcism I would think.
edit: Toying around with it I have noticed that changing the rotation likely the culprit of the weird results I am getting. Changing the rotation can change my DPS results by up to 300, but what's more interesting is that changing the rotation and re-running the optimizer will then change gear around to better suit your new rotation, often making up the difference. I've built a new set under the following rotation: HoW>Judge>Exorcism>CS>DS>Cons and it is now giving me 4p ideal with chest as the best offpiece.
Any way, this makes the tool much more complex, because the optimal rotation seems to change when your gear changes, and changing the rotation also changes the optimal gear. That makes finding the optimal rotation and optimal gearset much more difficult.
Red, what is the value for the Beserking enchant on your worksheet? I have gone through all 18 pages searching for the word "Beserk". While I know that it is considered better then Massacre, I just wanted to enter the appropriate value on the "Gear" sheet located under "Enchants".
Berserking is worth about 135 AP. You could have found that is the Ret Pally thread.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
As far as discussing Rawr in this thread, you have my blessing to do so, though I certainly have no power to enforce it either way!
My spreadsheet really is designed for people with fairly reasonable spreadsheet knowledge and a good idea of what all the numbers are. It isn't designed for everyone random guy to be able to pick up and use instantly, but rather to allow people with knowledge to customize their analysis to give the best possible results. In essence I built a spreadsheet for myself to use and cleaned it up a bit so other people could make sense of it.
I do feel like my sheet has the greatest accuracy and customizability, but it clearly isn't the most user friendly. Having Rawr available is great because having something else to measure against is useful. In this case competition breeds perfection, because whenever we compare values we can use that to check our assumptions and calculations and hopefully better understand the situations we are modeling as we as fix errors in our models.
I will be updating my sheet again when 3.1 comes out. Many of the changes are really easy to implement (like the talent changes) and a couple are really annoying. (Exorcism modelling based on a % undead input) Unfortunately I have vastly less time than I used to, so I won't be producing copies each week to model the current PTR changes. I will take some time once everything is finalized and get the sheet up to spec asap though.
Well.......the numbers say I should be doing 5800 dps but I'm usually around 3700-4000 in 25 man. I got my FCFS down to a science so where I'm going to get the 35% increase to dps from is a mystery to me.
03/05/09, 11:21 PM
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