First you need to figure out what you are measuring. My sheet is good for measuring Patchwerk type parses, it isn't going to be even remotely accurate for a full Naxx run. Secondly you need to check the assumptions. Make sure you have every single raid buff/debuff that you indicated in the sheet. Thirdly, check your cooldowns. Actually take a Patchwerk parse, figure out how many times you attacked with each ability and divide to get the true cooldown. You may find that your cooldowns are not being used in combat with the frequency you have entered.
Check all that and then see if it is close. If your actual combat ability uses are reflected in the sheet and your buffs/gear are entered correctly you should get fairly close to the ideal damage the sheet shows on a tanknspank. You will never get close on a long full instance run.
Incidentally, if you are only doing 3700 dps single target with your gear with 25 man buffs you really, really need to figure out what is wrong. You should be doing at least 1300 more dps than that.
First you need to figure out what you are measuring. My sheet is good for measuring Patchwerk type parses, it isn't going to be even remotely accurate for a full Naxx run. Secondly you need to check the assumptions. Make sure you have every single raid buff/debuff that you indicated in the sheet. Thirdly, check your cooldowns. Actually take a Patchwerk parse, figure out how many times you attacked with each ability and divide to get the true cooldown. You may find that your cooldowns are not being used in combat with the frequency you have entered.
Check all that and then see if it is close. If your actual combat ability uses are reflected in the sheet and your buffs/gear are entered correctly you should get fairly close to the ideal damage the sheet shows on a tanknspank. You will never get close on a long full instance run.
Incidentally, if you are only doing 3700 dps single target with your gear with 25 man buffs you really, really need to figure out what is wrong. You should be doing at least 1300 more dps than that.
We're a top 20 guild on the server and NOBODY does 5k+ dps let alone 6k as the spreadsheet indicates. These spreadsheets are useful i guess for gear itemization but when the rubber hits the road nobody does these theoretical numbers.
I have all the raid buffs and cast everything FCFS with Judgment top priority. I'm usually right around 4k on Patch. There is no way that any kind of raid buff is going to give me 35% more dps.
If someone can show me a WWS parse of a ret pally doing 6k dps on Patch maybe that would help me, because I haven't been able to find one.
We're a top 20 guild on the server and NOBODY does 5k+ dps let alone 6k as the spreadsheet indicates. These spreadsheets are useful i guess for gear itemization but when the rubber hits the road nobody does these theoretical numbers.
I have all the raid buffs and cast everything FCFS with Judgment top priority. I'm usually right around 4k on Patch. There is no way that any kind of raid buff is going to give me 35% more dps.
If someone can show me a WWS parse of a ret pally doing 6k dps on Patch maybe that would help me, because I haven't been able to find one.
I cannot fathom how that would be. I am in a 10s guild that pugged 25naxx a few times so my gear is worse than yours and I do 5k on patchwerk. If you can only do 4k you are either missing buffs you don't know about or you are slow on hitting your buttons.
Your suggestion that nobody does 5k dps on patchwerk is really off base too. Ret pallies have logged 5700 dps on patch with a perfect set of buffs and perfect gear. You don't have that, but the fact is that those ret pallies aren't world #1 in dps, the best of the best of other dpsers do hit 6k.
My sheet will give information as good as the input put into it. Check your effective cooldowns on patch and put those into the sheet and see what comes out. Don't use the theoretical ones I default, take a WWS and find out how effectively you hit your buttons.
I know at least two other paladins' WWS parses who managed to break 6k+ dps on Patchwerk. (Look here)
5k dps is pretty mediocre for a well geared ret paladin on patchwerk, good paladins maintain 5,5k+ dps. The numbers in redcapes spreadsheet are not so far off, definitely not.
I just installed the WWS client and plan on investigating some parses. What should I be looking for in the parses (how specifically should I parse the logs)? Could I paste some WWS parse links here for analysis?
I just installed the WWS client and plan on investigating some parses. What should I be looking for in the parses (how specifically should I parse the logs)? Could I paste some WWS parse links here for analysis?
An addon like LoggerHead does all that for you. It's pretty simple to use as well. And please feel free to post WWS here for analysis. That's what these boards are for.
Looking over your gear (which I'm fairly certain is PvP gear right now) one of your major set-backs is your weapon. Obviously, you're subject to RNG for drops, but you need to make a better weapon your top priority. If you are so concerned to min-max you'll want the Berserk enchant on it. You'll also want to drop the Inscribed Monarch Topaz for a Bold Scarlet Ruby. Bold Dragonseye's are all you need for your meta, so you shouldn't be using anything but Bold Scarlet Rubies in all other slots. Those are just some of the minor options you can keep an eye on when you are looking to increase your output.
*Edit* You'll also want to swap Divine Purpose for Pursuit of Justice. Minor speed increase translates to higher DPS than HoF removing stuns.
An addon like LoggerHead does all that for you. It's pretty simple to use as well. And please feel free to post WWS here for analysis. That's what these boards are for.
Looking over your gear (which I'm fairly certain is PvP gear right now) one of your major set-backs is your weapon. Obviously, you're subject to RNG for drops, but you need to make a better weapon your top priority. If you are so concerned to min-max you'll want the Berserk enchant on it. You'll also want to drop the Inscribed Monarch Topaz for a Bold Scarlet Ruby. Bold Dragonseye's are all you need for your meta, so you shouldn't be using anything but Bold Scarlet Rubies in all other slots. Those are just some of the minor options you can keep an eye on when you are looking to increase your output.
*Edit* You'll also want to swap Divine Purpose for Pursuit of Justice. Minor speed increase translates to higher DPS than HoF removing stuns.
Does Loggerhead just automatically start the combat log or does it provide any meaningful post processing analysis?
Yes, that is my PvP gear. As far as weapons go, yes I'm aware of that situation. I'm next in line to get BoH from Naxx when it drops again (we run it weekly).
Does Loggerhead just automatically start the combat log or does it provide any meaningful post processing analysis?
Yes, that is my PvP gear. As far as weapons go, yes I'm aware of that situation. I'm next in line to get BoH from Naxx when it drops again (we run it weekly).
LoggerHead does both. You have to run a javascript process and choose which combat log to load, but it does the rest including opening the WWS page for you. In game all you have to do is click "Enable" or "Disable" each zone you go into, that way it you can make sure it only tracks raid zones.
Thanks. So how do I parse that to see his rotation and how often he casts everything?
Once you've recorded your combat log using your logger (i.e. loggerhead), follow These Instructions, once you upload it, it will give you a link you can post here.
Use Redcape's Spreadsheet to compare the DPS you would gain from changing nothing but your current weapon to [Betrayer of Humanity], and you'll see its a ton of DPS you are losing there, compare [The Jawbone] and [Inevitable Defeat] also.
PS. Lag can be terrible for DPS. I recently upgraded my PC as I was running below 10 FPS on most fights, as my FPS went up to 40-60 on fights, my DPS went up close to 40%. What's your framerate at?
Once you've recorded your combat log using your logger (i.e. loggerhead), follow These Instructions, once you upload it, it will give you a link you can post here.
Use Redcape's Spreadsheet to compare the DPS you would gain from changing nothing but your current weapon to [Betrayer of Humanity], and you'll see its a ton of DPS you are losing there, compare [The Jawbone] and [Inevitable Defeat] also.
PS. Lag can be terrible for DPS. I recently upgraded my PC as I was running below 10 FPS on most fights, as my FPS went up to 40-60 on fights, my DPS went up close to 40%. What's your framerate at?
My fps is usually around 100fps in instances.
I'm able to create WWS reports fine but what the hell am i looking for when viewing the reports is what I'm asking. How do I recognize inefficiencies in my play?
Here's a report for last nights Sarth +3 attempts.
Click on "Full report", select "Sartharion Death" (or any attempt you're interested in).
Click on your own name in the list.
Check "active presence" at the top (575 seconds).
Click on "Columns", put a check mark under "Crit" and under "All Miss" (not "miss"!) for all abilities.
Now for each ability, sum up the numbers under "Hit", "Crit" and "Missed" (not "miss"!).
Take that number and divide it by your "active presence" number (575 seconds).
This is your average cooldown used. Compare that to the theoretical cooldown and the average cooldown given by the spreadsheet to evaluate how great/badly you did.
Keep in mind fights like Sartharion+adds with a lot of movement from one target to the other as well as position shifts around the mob you're fighting will significantly reduce your average strikes, so it's a very bad example to see how good you are doing your rotations (patchwerk is the usual suggestion, or any boss where you're stationary and just timing your attacks).
At a fight like Sarth you "can" abuse AoE however to inflate your DPS (~5k+ total DPS), but that's more for "lulz" than of any real relevance.
Here's a report for last nights Sarth +3 attempts.
There are so many random things that will influence your dps and rotation on Sarth 3D fight that you really shouldn't use it as your benchmark. Compare your Naxx numbers from this coming week to some of those in the ret thread to get a better feel for where you should be.
Click on "Full report", select "Sartharion Death" (or any attempt you're interested in).
Click on your own name in the list.
Check "active presence" at the top (575 seconds).
Click on "Columns", put a check mark under "Crit" and under "All Miss" (not "miss"!) for all abilities.
Now for each ability, sum up the numbers under "Hit", "Crit" and "Missed" (not "miss"!).
Take that number and divide it by your "active presence" number (575 seconds).
This is your average cooldown used. Compare that to the theoretical cooldown and the average cooldown given by the spreadsheet to evaluate how great/badly you did.
Keep in mind fights like Sartharion+adds with a lot of movement from one target to the other as well as position shifts around the mob you're fighting will significantly reduce your average strikes, so it's a very bad example to see how good you are doing your rotations (patchwerk is the usual suggestion, or any boss where you're stationary and just timing your attacks).
At a fight like Sarth you "can" abuse AoE however to inflate your DPS (~5k+ total DPS), but that's more for "lulz" than of any real relevance.
I'll be running Naxx tonight so I'll post that report. I crunched the numbers as you suggested and here's what I got:
Judgment = every 4.4s
CS = every 9.2s
DS = every 5.4s
Melee = every 3.1s
Where in the spreadsheet does it show the theoretical cooldowns to compare these to?
Judgment = every 4.4s <- impossible, J is on a 7s cooldown (seperate recoil from damage to target)
CS = every 9.2s <- would be very poor
DS = every 5.4s <- impossible, DS is on a 10s cooldown
Melee = every 3.1s
Keep in mind that martyr/blood is counted twice as it hits you and the target. So 8.8 is probably more on the mark. DS hits multiple targets so perhaps 10s+1.5 gcd is more realistic.
I'll be running Naxx tonight so I'll post that report. I crunched the numbers as you suggested and here's what I got:
Judgment = every 4.4s
CS = every 9.2s
DS = every 5.4s
Melee = every 3.1s
Where in the spreadsheet does it show the theoretical cooldowns to compare these to?
Just to spare the trouble of people who have the time to regularly post on this board, I can help you a bit alcapwnd, since I asked the same basic question a while ago. WWS is not the ultimate god of parsing combat logs. WWS sees something like
"Your Judgement of blood hits big bad Patchwork for 6K"
"Your Judgement of blood hits you for 2K"
and counts it as 2 instances of JoB. Remember, all WWS can do is parse your log. So your actual judgement time is closer to 8.8s. I'm running on a public computer atm at a work conference in salt lake city with no ability to tab out and see whether you're using the 4piece t7 bonus. If your are, then 8.8s is just plain awful for a fight like patch. If you're not, then 8.8 isn't great, ie probably not clash/latency limited, but isn't terrible either. At least it shows you're prioritizing judgement. 9.2s for CS isn't good for a 6s CD ability. Remember that you want to be prioritizing it above DS, Cons, exo, HW. The concept being improving your dps not improving your damage / click. I'm guessing that DS is doing the same thing with it's self heal, but I"m not sure and that doesn't quite make sense b/c it's not a dmg causing ability. At any rate, you get the idea of how you can use WWS to determine if you're doing something wrong (which I suspect you are with a 9.2s CS). The tool is really most useful for determining if you are effectively monitoring and utilizing you GCD's for maximum dps, given the typical latency you have during play time.
Everything else, you could get from a recount style addon
Just to spare the trouble of people who have the time to regularly post on this board, I can help you a bit alcapwnd, since I asked the same basic question a while ago. WWS is not the ultimate god of parsing combat logs. WWS sees something like
"Your Judgement of blood hits big bad Patchwork for 6K"
"Your Judgement of blood hits you for 2K"
and counts it as 2 instances of JoB. Remember, all WWS can do is parse your log. So your actual judgement time is closer to 8.8s. I'm running on a public computer atm at a work conference in salt lake city with no ability to tab out and see whether you're using the 4piece t7 bonus. If your are, then 8.8s is just plain awful for a fight like patch. If you're not, then 8.8 isn't great, ie probably not clash/latency limited, but isn't terrible either. At least it shows you're prioritizing judgement. 9.2s for CS isn't good for a 6s CD ability. Remember that you want to be prioritizing it above DS, Cons, exo, HW. The concept being improving your dps not improving your damage / click. I'm guessing that DS is doing the same thing with it's self heal, but I"m not sure and that doesn't quite make sense b/c it's not a dmg causing ability. At any rate, you get the idea of how you can use WWS to determine if you're doing something wrong (which I suspect you are with a 9.2s CS). The tool is really most useful for determining if you are effectively monitoring and utilizing you GCD's for maximum dps, given the typical latency you have during play time.
Everything else, you could get from a recount style addon
This was for a Sartharion +2 drakes fight. I'll parse Patchwerk tonight. Thanks for the info.
I'm guessing that DS is doing the same thing with it's self heal, but I"m not sure and that doesn't quite make sense b/c it's not a dmg causing ability.
It's because of blazes/2drakes/whelps registering multiple hits each 'use'.
531s/(36+24+2) = 8.56s /next anomaly: furthermore all miss is seperated in Miss, Resist, Block, Parry, Dodge and Other. Do not count it multiple times.
4) DS:
Originally Posted by vorda
It's because of blazes/2drakes/whelps registering multiple hits each 'use'.
There is no simple way to track your cooldown use down other than check your logfile manually by using WWS. But WMO (wowmeteronline) has an extra column for this (abilities used).
After applying the changes posted last night, Ermad says that Rawr is telling him that a CS > Judge rotation is beating a Judge > CS rotation (by 100 dps without and 10 dps with T7 4pc). There could easily be a programmatical error involved but with the addition of RV to CS, it might be possible. Anyone take a look into this? Our "rotation" would still be FCFS, but it could shift priorities if this comes out to be true.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
How is the FCFS cycle going to change with respect to Exorcism and its glyph in 3.1? I'm curious to know so I can get into the rhythm of it before Ulduar comes out.
After applying the changes posted last night, Ermad says that Rawr is telling him that a CS > Judge rotation is beating a Judge > CS rotation (by 100 dps without and 10 dps with T7 4pc). There could easily be a programmatical error involved but with the addition of RV to CS, it might be possible. Anyone take a look into this? Our "rotation" would still be FCFS, but it could shift priorities if this comes out to be true.
My numbers contradict. I still find Judgement king of the hill.
My assumptions are:
Glyph of Judgement, Exorcism, Consecration
Full Raid Buffs
High end T7 gear with 4 piece bonus.
How does Ermad deal with effective cooldowns? Is he assuming everything is used as soon as available, delayed by a specific amount, or did he derive effective cooldowns for every possible rotation separately (I did this last)? What assumptions on glyphs and raid buffs - that can make a major difference. Has he modeled the new mechanics for boss armour (lower initial value, 20% and 5% multiplicative reductions)? If he's using old armour modeling then ArmPen is inflated (125% better is superior under old armour modeling) - this could artificially inflate CS since it is mitigated by armour.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
03/22/09, 2:36 PM
Similar Threads
