Endoscient

I was looking through Redcape's and Rawr code a lot to try to find what was the discrepancy. One thing I noticed is that in Redcape's Consecrate damage is multiplied by chance for spell resist. Only the first tick of consecrate can miss though, so it is overvaluing Hit for Consecrate dps.

With how close people are trying to compare the two, we should make sure we are using the same assumptions/gear. The fight I am simulating is a 5 minute fight (so 1 Bloodlust and 3 AWs), all raid buffs/gylphs, a CS > HoW > Judge > Cons > Exo rotation, and the following gear.

Slot	Item
Head	[Obsidian Greathelm]
Neck	[Favor of the Dragon Queen]
Shoulders	[Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates]
Chest	[Valorous Redemption Chestpiece]
Waist	[Girdle of Chivalry]
Legs	[Valorous Redemption Legplates]
Feet	[Iron-Spring Jumpers]
Wrist	[Bracers of Unrelenting Attack]
Hands	[Valorous Redemption Gauntlets]
Finger1	[Ruthlessness]
Finger2	[Surge Needle Ring]
Trinket1	[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket2	[Mirror of Truth]
Back	[Drape of the Deadly Foe]
MainHand	[Betrayer of Humanity]
Ranged	[Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]

edit: Thanks Exemplar I didn't know that, I will update Rawr to reflect that.

 

Exemplar

This is incorrect. Tests have found that every tick of Consecrate can miss separately. The first will show "resist" (or is it correctly Miss, now?) while others will simply not display. I.e. unglyphed you have 8 ticks. Let's say the RNG is evil and half miss. The first tick is "Ermad's consecration was resisted." You then get 4 ticks of "Ermad's consecration does 5 billion damage." And nothing else. The other ticks do not display in the combat log.

Search the other Ret thread for tests, screenshots, and WWS of this.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Redcape

Exemplar is 100% correct. I tested this myself, the initial application of Consecrate misses sometimes, but any others simply vanish into the ether, no combat log entry. You can test this easily by Consecrating the boss combat dummy with no hit gear on, ticks simply go unrecorded. Hit rating applies to Consecrate for exactly the amount you would expect applied to each tick individually.

 

• frmorrison

Redcape,
So people have shown that Pally special attacks are on a 2 roll system and auto is 1 roll. Since Rogues proved that a while ago, I am surprised that Endo (Rawr Developer) just added it (better late than never!).

Does this sheet include the 2-roll system for specials? I would assume it would make the hit/exp weights shown in this sheet go up even more.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Buffie

I know this wasn't directed at me, but i just happened to see that values for a 2 roll system are in the other ret thread.

The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0)

And yes, your assumption is correct, the value of hit increases significantly.

 

Redcape

Version 2.5 is now out. This version is up to date with all new information from new theorycrafting and 3.1 changes as far as I know. Please let me know if there is anything I missed. First post updated.

 

• frmorrison

Looks good, now the numbers in Rawr nearly match these numbers.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Kuthumii

Where is Divine Storm in this rotation or did I miss something?

 

Endoscient

It was a typo, I meant CS > HoW > Judge > DS > Cons > Exo.

 

Redcape

This will be our standard rotation for 3.1 and going forward as far as I can see. CS has our highest damage of all attacks, HoW is second (and putting it second in priority makes sense so their cooldowns will not clash) and Judgement is obviously hugely important for mana return, debuffing, etc. DS does more damage than Cons for less mana on same cooldown and Exorcism (though its damage is great now) has a long cooldown so putting it last in priority is definitely the way to go.

The only thing that might change is when we are sub 20% if mana is an issue. HoW is great but it is a mana hog and it might be really sensible to put Consecrate behind Exorcism for priority at that point to avoid pumping out even more mana for a low return.

 

Capstone

I'm confused. Seems to me ability priority should be based upon damage per GCD, so how does Exo's CD have anything to do with it?

 

Nisall

The FCFS rotation is based on DPS, because exo is on a 15sec CD it would have to do 1.5x the dmg of DS/Cons, ~2x the damage of J, or 2.5x the damage of CS/HoW in order to get another position in the priority list.

 

Endoscient

The basis of what a good FCFS rotation is much more complicated then just putting the highest dps first, whether based on per cooldown or per cast time. Its a balance of them putting the highest dps abilities in front, and how much you lose to get them there.

 

Capstone

I understand that cooldown clashing and secondary procs (RV, libram, whichever) can modify ability priority. I just don't understand how the cooldown in and of itself has anything to do with it. It's somewhat of a moot point since Exorcism is still less damage per cast than DS or Cons anyway, but I felt the need to clarify that DPS is based on damage per cast time (disregarding cutoffs from the last ticks of RV and Cons being cut off by mob death) and an ability's cooldown shouldn't change its effect on DPS for a particular GCD opportunity.

 

Redcape

You generally want to prioritize abilities with shorter cooldowns because you fill more of your GCDs in total by doing that. If we were totally GCD locked then definitely the highest damage abilities should come first, but we are not. Given that we do have extra space it is important to use lower cooldowns first because you end up with more GCD room used, and thus more damage.

Other things to keep in mind are that prioritizing abilities based on relative cooldown is important. If you prioritize Judgement over CS and they have 8s and 6s cooldowns you will end up having a 8s cooldown CS, which isn't ideal. Since CS now has our highest damage it goes first, HoW fits in nicely with it and as such goes second, Judgement runs our engine and does good damage so it goes third, and DS/Cons are 4th and fifth. Exorcism does similar damage to our other abilities but because it has a longer cooldown you lose less by delaying it, which relegates it to last priority. The only situation that changes that is of course if mana becomes a concern, in which case Consecrate gets dumped to last priority or not used at all.

 

Valdamos

Not sure whether or not this is the place to ask this, but couldn't find a list anywhere and this place seemed at least somewhat appropriate.

Where do the buffs we get to increase our dps come from. My guild unfortunately doesn't have many melee and I'm trying to figure out what debuffs on the boss I'm missing. I know MotW comes from Druids, and BoM comes from me, I'm looking for a complete list and their sources. If someone could post this information that would be awesome. I'm currently looking at Redscapes DPS calculator and there seems to be around 20 separate raid buffs, and I'm pretty sure I'm not getting all of them in my raids.

 

greatrichie

MMO-Champion RaidComp

This will give you all the buffs and wwho does what.

 

Pdawg

version 2.3 said:
Str 185
Hit rating 138
Crit rating 87
Exp rating 85

and now version 2.5 says:
Hit rating 213
Str 166
Exp rating 154
Crit rating 81

Is there a mistake here? Each point of hit rating now causes 29% more dps than a point of strength? What changes in 3.1 caused this radical change? Should we now be gemming for hit rating rather than strength until we reach the hit cap?

 

greatrichie

Yes, hit cap is priority now. This is all caused by the Judgement/Seal of Blood/Martyr changes and the fact that our Specials are on a 2 roll system (which isn't a 3.1 change, just no one really tested it).

edit: I'm not 100% sure how much the 2 roll thing affects pre 3.1 numbers, so i don't know if hit>Str in 3.0, but 3.0 is about done so I don't think it matters.

 

Wrathblood

Pdawg,

In a nutshell, all ret special attacks use a 2-roll system when the community (and all modelers that I'm aware of) believed it used a 1-roll system. Additionally, a larger % of ret dps will be coming from SoB which can be dodged/parried and less from judgments which cannot. To somewhat make-up for the loss of dps on judging, a MUCH larger chunk of ret mana regen is now tied to successful judges, so while they aren't as important for dps, they are much more so from a mana regen perspective.

As a result, both hit and expertise (until capped for hit and dodge-capped for expertise) are viewed as significantly more valuable than previously. So, yes, getting hit capped should be your first priority, and getting expertise capped, while not an absolute necessity, is also very valuable. The caveat to this is that Ulduar gear is packed with +hit, so getting hit-capped (and to a lesser extent, expertise dodge-capped) should be pretty easy once you're in Ulduar gear. Needless to say, (on live anyway) you're not actually in Ulduar gear yet, so reconsider your gearing and gemming options now so you'll be ready to be productive once 3.1 hits.

For the details, check the ret pally thread.

 

Nisall

With new importance of hit the old tbc head enchant is a very good place to get it.

Using my redcape stats weights I get
16 hit * 207 + 34ap * 62 = 5420 points for the Tbc enchant
20 crit * 82 + 50ap * 62 = 4740 points for the WotLK enchant

 

Thelgar

With these new weightings, it is interesting to see items that have lots of hit become much better than they are currently valued. Items like Undiminished Battleplate and Iron-Spring Jumpers seem much more important now (at least until we get enough Ulduar gear to reach hit cap easily). Some minor adjustment of our current 3.0.9 gear setup is necessary once the new patch hits.

Heck, by Redscape's numbers, Iron-spring Jumpers is actually better than Melancholy Sabatons so long as you do not exceed hit cap. Kind of sad since I just won the Sabatons recently..

 

• frmorrison

Since the devs added a lot of hit items for the next instance, I see the hit cap reached pretty fast once you start winning some items, so it is good to have strong +0 hit items around.

Anyway, even if Iron-Spring is better right now, the Sabatons will help you with the first boss (your vehicle does more damage if you use higher item level items).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

tarja

This is very interesting to note, although personally I think you are better off gemming for your remaining hit rating rather than taking the head enchant with much lower total itemization value. For example, you could obtain 16 hit rating by using the TBC head enchant, or by changing two red Strength gems into orange Str/Hit gems:

TBC head enchant + 2 Red gems:
16 hit * 207 + 34ap * 62 + 32 str * 157 = 10444 points

WotLK head enchant + 2 orange gems:
16 hit * 207 + 50ap * 62 + 20 crit * 82 + 16 str * 157 = 10564 points


It's actually very close, and I could see the TBC head enchant coming out ahead for some people, depending on their exact weights for Str and Crit for their current gear. Although another thing to note is that using orange Str/Hit gems may allow you to grab more socket bonuses than gemming pure Str, and I didn't consider that above.

 

J1M

I mentioned this in the other thread, but this seems like a better place for it. What is the value of hit rating beyond the hit cap? I understand that it will still help exo and consecration and those are much less important now in the FCFS rotation we have, but I'd like to know how extra hit rating stacks up compared to armor penetration or haste.