Thelgar

Not sure if this is the best place to ask.. I've not had the chance to go to PTR to test it out myself, but I've always thought that when they said the new Ulduar vehicles scale with gear, that it scales with our str, ap, crit, hit etc. i.e. our dps stats.

So they scale with our item level instead? Regardless even if that item actually does less dps in a non-vehicular fight?

 

• frmorrison

Yes, the vehicle code just checks for item level, not any stats on your items.

After you win the first boss, just swap it out .

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Blutelf

This source seems to describe it very well: FlameLeviathan - StratFu

 

Wrathblood

According to RAWR, using my gear, 1 Hit (over cap) is worth about 40% as much as 1 AP, perhaps 15% as much as 1 STR, and 50% more than 1 spellpower.

So, not a lot, but certainly not zero.

 

madmardigan83

Just a quick question regarding talent point "best bang for your buck". My attempt is to find 2 points for a PvP spec that I can put into Vindication. Although I do understand SoC is not a very strong ability espeically with the changes to SS, I generally like to keep it for when I am against a high burst team and I'm being targeted. Anyway, this is the current spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft which needs 2 points removed from somewhere to put in Vindication. So the question is, Where do I pull it from?

Using the Calculator, I went to Talents and Buff's page and started taking out talent points to see the impact on page 1's dps. These were my results of dps lost by talent point for each talent:

Talent: (1 point lost)/(two points lost)

2h Spec.: 72/145

Fanaticism: 31/62

Veng: 152/304

RV: 113/226

Sanc. Wrath: 28/56

Art of War: 87/174

Crusade: 107/213

Now, I know the calculator is really intended for use in PvE, but is this still an acceptable use for a pvp scenario? Is my method wrong all together? (for example, these dps losses seem quite low for a loss in talent points. I would have expected much larger numbers?) I used the default stats given in the Calc which are higher than my DPS gear.

I do understand some things are more important for PvP... such as Sant. Wrath goes through resiliance and therefore is more important than just as listed as dps.

Finally... I was supprised to see 2h spec. was such a marginal increase. Does it only effect certain talents?

Thanks much for any insight, thoughts, and feedback.

 

Wrathblood

I'm sure you're aware, but I'd think Sanc Wrath is pretty much a must-have. Sure, the overall impact on dps is low, but its all when you really want it - finishing someone off.

I find it hard to believe 2h specialization is lower than Crusade. Don't they do the same thing against a humanoid target?

Edit - oh, I'm an idiot. 2h spec won't help with anything that isn't based on weapon damage. Still, I agree that seems a little low. How much are you assuming Consecration is up?

 

Redcape

For pvp I would just remove consecration entirely from consideration. You really don't have enough mana to be using it reliably and people don't stand in it. Set the delay on it to 100 or something to reflect that. That should change the numbers somewhat.

 

• frmorrison

2H spec only affects strikes, so auto, CS, and DS and the resulting RV tics, and I am unsure about Seals/Judges.

Crusade is just a flat 6% damage (on humanoids), so 2H spec/SoC seems like the best place to drop talents for PvP.

Also, if you get 17 in Prot (you should get 19), you get a buffed SS spell, so that will help with SoB damage.

If you were doing an all dps team, I would pick up DiS healing glyph, since it double dips with Divinity. With that build, you get the normal 15% + 15% from glyph +8%, so if you hit someone for 3000, that is a 972 heal to your group.

Otherwise with a healer around, get the Seal of Blood glyph.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...4&version=9767 that should be a good PvP build.

With Judgements not being as great as they once were and other talents buffed, I don't see it as that good of a talent (like in TBC).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

• Avitus

This. Knowing how much DPS they provide is nice, but is not the deciding factor.

For example, your results indicate Fanaticism is significantly lower DPS than RV. However, I'd much rather crit 25% more (or soon to be 18% more) with my Judgement in Arenas than add a (dispelable) dot, especially when I'm trying to burst someone down.

Similarly, AoW and Sanctified Wrath (HoW crits!) are must have for other reasons than pure DPS.

Regarding 2h spec, this has already been answered, it doesn't affect all abilities, only abilities that use weapon damage.


I'm not sure if you did, but as Wrathblood suggested, you should re-run your numbers without Consecration use if you haven't, to get realistic numbers.

 

kharen

As far as seals and judgements go, IIRC it affects those that have a weapon damage coefficient, rather than a straight ap/sp coefficient, so SoC and SoB are affected (but by significantly less than 6%, as they use less than 100% of weapon damage as just a portion of their overall damage), while SoR and SoV aren't.

 

Thelgar

Another newbie question: If I recall correctly, one of the reasons hit became so important in our new calculations was because of the realization that our specials use a 2-roll system.

But since this 2-roll system is already in place currently, just that we did not have the statistics to prove it then, does it mean that our current pre-3.1 values for hit is actually lower than it should be?

If this is true, then gear stat weightings may be affected somewhat, perhaps enough for some pieces to become better than others, even pre-3.1.

 

madmardigan83

Excellent point regarding Concecration, and in fact it got me thinking. I need to change the target's stats as well. I'm also removing the raid buffs that I won't have. But for the target:

Current:

Level – 83

Base Armor – 11893

Glance Redux - 8.75

Dodge – 6.5

Miss – 8

Resist – 17

Partial Resist – 6

Melee Crit Redux – 4.8

Spell Crit Redux

Change to:

Level – 80

Base Armor – 8000 (obviously varies a lot here)

Glance Redux - 0 Can pvp glance?

Dodge – 5%

Miss – 5%

Resist – 0

Partial Resist – 0

Melee Crit Redux – 0

Spell Crit Redux - 0

Would this be correct? I'm not sure if pvp can glance, and I'm pretty sure about the dodge and miss, but not 100%. Feel free to correct me. However, I'll run it this way and these are the results:

Talent: (1 point lost)/(two points lost)
2h Spec.: 57/114
Fanaticism: 22/45
Veng: 107/214
RV: 90/180
Sanc. Wrath: 23/45
Art of War: 67/133
Crusade: 75/150



I agree Avitus and Wrath about the pvp uses which is invisiable here, but important in pvp. And keeping that in mind, I would suggest NOT removing Sanc. Wrath even though it's one of the lowest (wings are up and it goes through resiliance). Also, because Ret in pvp is very burst oriented, I would even keep Fanat. again, even though the dps loss is the least.

It looks like 2h Spec is the place to draw 2 points from (or 1 from 2h and 1 from SoC if you don't want to have SoC)


Unless some of my numbers are fairly off, this could be a decent representation of it. Of course, let me know if I missed soemthing. Thanks!

 

• frmorrison

You cannot glance in PvP (your weapon skill is maxed out in PvP, even if it really isn't max skill). Miss and Dodge depend on racial abilities (NE have 2% miss and BE have 2% spell miss) and some talents add to miss/dodge. Also you cannot dodge from behind in PvP.

Anyway, I would do 5% miss, 6% dodge (to account for parry and talents/racials).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Redcape

These base numbers look okay, but I would definitely set dodge lower. You are often attacking from behind or into someone who is casting/stunned so chance to dodge should be more like 3% I would think. However, since occasionally you will be attacking someone who can parry you could just set dodge to 4% and go with that as a ballpark.

I will be implementing a much better set of target stats in the next build, largely because I am teaching myself VBA and the next build will be a monstrous rewrite with all kinds of userforms and macros built in to increase how user friendly the spreadsheet is while increasing utility. Hopefully when I publish again all kinds of people with less spreadsheet and theorycraft experience will be able to use the sheet more comfortably.

 

• Avitus

This is down to personal preference as there's no 100% correct answer. For example I prefer dropping some in RV rather than 2h spec since 2h spec still adds somewhat to your burst, where as RV doesn't (despite it making more sense DPS wise to do the reverse).

Still going either way would make sense in this case. And yea, I'd definitely drop SoC.

 

Kethion

In the most recent version of the spreadsheet, my unbuffed divine storms are reading approximately 18% lower than the values I have been getting from testing on target dummies on the PTR. Seeing as how divine storm damage was supposed to be buffed this patch, I was wondering if there may be a value off in the spreadsheet.

I'm also seeing a generic DPS decrease using the same values from the v2.3 spreadsheet, both using non-undead mobs as a reference.

Is anyone else seeing either of these differences, or is it just me? It's also entirely possible that I just screwed up inputting the spreadsheet info, but I haven't found any mistakes thus far. Any input or clarification would be greatly appreciated.

 

Redcape

The spreadsheet shows DS to be hitting for 4605 on average with full raid buffs and mostly 213 gear, but that does include the dot damage from RV. How much were your DS hitting for on the dummy?

 

Kethion

I was doing an unbuffed check, and was getting an average of 2800-ish, with the spreadsheet reading 2343. Looking at my values fully raid buffed, it's showing up with 4313 as the damage per cast. I'm not entirely sure what I messed up on, but I'm going to guess it's a mistake on my end, as the buffed values you are listing are far more similar, and my gear is not quite all 213 yet.

If it provides any insight to what I could have been doing wrong during the tests, I turned off all raid buffs except 3% damage and 3% haste and set AW and heroism uses to 0. I used SoW and BoW during the testing, and only used divine storm and auto attacks. Vengeance remained 100% uptime and I have the 2pc t7 bonus. I don't think there is anything I didn't account for, but I assume that I missed something, or there is some value I should not have changed.

 

Babathong

I have heard different theories on optimal gear setup for entering Ulduar. Is there a final consensus on whether switching out 4pc T7.5 for the BiS leather items is the way to go? Im figuring on keeping the Obsidian Greathelm and 2pc T7.5, while switching out the other pieces for Chestguard of the Recluse and Leggings of the Honored.

Any final thoughts on this?

 

Nisall

It has been stated numerous times over the last couple of pages that BiS > 4t7 with the seal changes.

 

HamSlammer

This.

However, breaking 2piece is somewhat difficult. The best possible way to tackle busting your 2piece is to do so with 4pieceT8.

 

Ssateneth

There was a blue post concerning the specifics of the mechanics of Armor Penetration. It can be seen in this post.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?!

Possibly it can be incorporated into the spreadsheet to give a more accurate value of ArP?

 

Redcape

Yes.

My internal version has already taken that into account, but I have not quite completed the next version to a publishable state. As soon as I get a few small things tweaked I will be putting out another version with the ArPen changes built in.

The next version will also have a bunch of macros built in to hopefully increase the ease of use for those not familiar with spreadsheets as well as to dramatically lower my development time for future editions and changes. I went out and taught myself VBA for this purpose.

It will probably one week or so before I publish it. Just for the moment though you could reduce ArPen by a few % in effectiveness and be pretty well on, it is slightly less effective than before but it isn't hugely game changing. (In PVE)

 

Kaprina

I was just getting around to setting up Pawn, does the current value of Arp in the OP reflect this new info?

 

Redcape

No, I will update the whole set of values in the OP when I republish. I generally try not to update them unless I have a full dataset to work with, but you can just drop ArPen to 70 with the current weights up there and be pretty accurate. It isn't all that big a change.