Jourgenson

The reason for this is because when soloing you rarely land more than one judgement per mob. I've done 2 full naxx clears now switching between Wisdom and Justice and haven't seen a single judgement bug. I cannot account for the ancedotes of judgements bugging on critters, but switching debuffs definately works on raid bosses.

 

Binkie

to factor in the 4 piece bonus on our gear, ie the 1 sec reduction on judgements, we just change the delay from 8.50 to 7.50?

please correct me if im wrong.

 

Redcape

It can be more complicated than that since you may end up with ability clashes. That said, 7.5 is probably a fine delay to use as a ballpark.

 

Hylo

I've been thinking about whether to choose "best in slot" plate items according to your weighting or to pick 4x T7. I seriously loathe the haste in T7 and would happily skip all the other parts than shoulders if I could justify the loss of set bonus.

To get a *really* rough number about how much 1 sec cooldown reduction affects your dps you could figure out that it boosts your Judgement dps by (8.5/7.5=) 13.3%. If Judgement is, say, 23% of your dps the total boost is around ~3%.

One could argue that cooldown reduction gives you more dps boost than that due to more mana available, but then again you will get more ability clashes as pointed out above.

 

Rukiia

This idea has been going round my head for a while now. Without the 4 set pieces that you would choose (everything but helm) you do open up some very very solid items. However the 4 set pieces do have massive strength on them. If you factor in the set bonus and the raw str you get from them i guess it will probably work out better than 4 random slots. However the combinations of gear that would allow you to reach hit/expertise cap but freeing up the slots is rather large. Maybe someone could work out a set that does not include the set bonus (and can use leather) and we could look at the math?

 

Hylo

I can show you what kind of set I'm thinking at the moment:

[Obsidian Greathelm]
[Favor of the Dragon Queen]
[Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates]
[Drape of the Deadly Foe]
[Undiminished Battleplate]
[Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress]
[Betrayer of Humanity]
[Crude Discolored Battlegrips]
[Girdle of Razuvious]
[Belabored Legplates]
[Death-Inured Sabatons]
[Ruthlessness]
[Surge Needle Ring]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] (str version obviously)
[Bandit's Insignia]

This will give me without gems, enchant and bonii the following stats:

761 Strength
191 Agility
764 AP
720 Crit rating
291 Hit rating
212 Expertise rating
88 Haste rating
109 Armor penetration rating

I'm particularly pleased with the facts that both hit and expertise ratings are close to perfect and the set has low haste and armor penetration. This leaves me free to gem and enchant for pure Srt/AP (+27 str for 3 blue sockets is pure love) or whatever I wish. As a jewelcrafter I can socket with 161 additional strength.

Properly gemmed and enchanted this set will put me very close to 4000 AP unbuffed.

 

Rukiia

Damn nice work Hylo. I will have a quick look at a few variations but your setup looks extremely solid indeed. Just need some more input from the forums regulars. Again, great work from everyone here pushing to get the best possible raid gear, keep it up guys.

[Melancholy Sabatons] are actually pretty damn nice too, but the ebon blade exalted boots are also nice (and save some dkp )

 

Meaniah

Hello everyone,
I'm new to the board, but not new to retribution; raiding as ret since october last year.
Although i've been away from theorycrafting for a while, mainly due to a summer break.
As far as i know, pre Wotlk haste was a good stat that almost all belfs were aiming at, now i see everyone speaking about skipping this particular stat or not caring about it as we used to do before.
Is there any particolar reason for this change?
As in, it did get worse then before? Or did other stat become more important for a reason i might have missed?
At start i was quite happy when i saw that T7 had haste, but now after coming back to theorycraft site and reading all this "anti-haste" i'm not quite sure anymore.
I was aiming at 4 parts T7 both for the very good bonus, in my opinion, but also for the haste in those set parts.
Also in some calculators i've seen [Armageddon] very low in the top dps list, despite the good ( and equivalent on other weapons ) STR and the massive haste.

It's my first post in this boards, although i think is the right thread to ask this question.

Thanks in advance to anyone who will solve my problem

 

dr2ww62

From what I've gathered basically it is because of some mechanics changes with haste. It no longer reduces the global cooldown on instant attacks. This was a major source of the dps increase. It still scales with SoM/SoB, so you get some dps increase from it in that sense. But the GCD nerf made it less desirable than other stats on an itemization level.

 

• frmorrison

Haste has never affected the GCD on melee attacks, only spells. Haste was great in BC for BE since SoB/melee were major sources of damage. Now those aren't that great.

 

Jourgenson

It never changed the GCD on melee abilities. Since melee and spell haste have been consolidated into a single stat, it does decrease the GCD of consecration, exorcism, holy wrath, and seals.

The reason haste was so important pre-3.0 was that 80% of a seal twisting blood elf's dps was from his autoattack. Also, judgement hit like a wet noodle and we only had one worthy instant attack. Post-3.0, roughly 30% of our dps comes from autoattack, and all our instants are now scaling with AP, so they have become a much greater part of our dps. In effect, haste has gone from increasing 75-80% of our DPS to 25-30%. I believe it's dps per-ilvl value has dropped below even armor pen.

edit: Too slow.

 

dr2ww62

That makes more sense. I apologize for my inaccurate assessment. I am new to paladins as well as melee characters (used to play a mage up until this expansion) so I am trying to get caught up on years worth of theorycrafting. Since paladins went through such drastic changes recently it has been easier for me, but I'm a little slow on pre 3.0 information.

So if I understand correctly, haste was never changed. The main source of our damage changed from auto attack\SoM dmg which scales well with haste to our instant attacks, which do not scale with haste.

 

Kiliek

dr2ww62, that is correct. There is additional discussion worth reading if you want the original posts used to create this new consolidation thread. Also, the sticky is very useful for simple information also.

 

Chmur

Back to Berserking - more anecdotal evidence, however I guess we are getting there. Just wish I was rich enough to test this myself

And just quick note, 45sec upkeep out of minute would be 400*45/60 = 300 AP flat. Anecdotal 300AP, mind you!

-Golden quote from those wild days around 3.03 release-

 

Aarn

There is a new version of Rawr out, Retribution model is 2.1.3.2 which seems to be working a lot better then the previous two versions. It also values armor penetration a lot better but the values seem higher then in Redcapes spreadsheet.
I'd actually like to believe the Rawr model but I think I need to be convinced.

What do you guys think?

 

Jourgenson

Rawr values stat by ilvl cost, Redcape values them per point. I believe armor pen rating is cheaper than many other stats. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Redcape

You are wrong in this case. Armor penetration was initialled valued at roughly 7:1, but now that it is a rating it is valued exactly the same as any other rating. The notable exceptions to the 'all stats are the same cost' rule:

Spellpower - 15% cheaper
AP - 50% cheaper
Stamina - 33% cheaper
Block Value - 33% cheaper
Mp5 - 140% more

I can't remember any more exceptions off the top of my head.

Since our damage relies so heavily on magical damage I don't see how armor penetration could be anything but bad. It is fine for rogues/warriors/hunters/catdps but it is very weak for DK/Ret/Enhance(I think, could be wrong about them)

 

Jourgenson

Makes sense. ArP food/gems are all the same values as str/hit/haste/crit food/gems.

 

• frmorrison

You are right about armor pen being bad, but it is only fair for Rogue/warrior/Kitty/Blood DK and bad for Hunter, Unholy/Frost DK, Ret, Enhance and Hunter.

It is a only fair for the first side because they have bleeds/poisons/disease tics for a good portion of damage.


Even though it is weak, I think that an item with just Str/Crit is weaker than a same ilevel with Str/Armor Pen/Crit.

 

Leonina

stats have cumultive costs, so what you say might be true, frmorrison
EDIT: So, I just got [Libram of Radiance] - How good is this actually?
Mine says 127dmg increased tho.

 

• frmorrison

Art of War (as well as PvP gloves 5% bonus) changes the tooltip of all the Librams that affect CS damage.

 

Leonina

Aah, thanks. But, How good is it compared to other stuff?

 

Kazekan

Being that CS is on a 6s CD, unless this damange is modified by any type of stat (which I'm pretty sure it's not, judging from how I understand the Holy version of these librams to work (+healing on a skill)), it would be a straight 21.17 DPS increase if used on CD. Compare that with say 73 crit for 8 seconds after Divine Storm (for raiding at least), and you'll have your answer. Unfortunately I'm at work and cannot say exactly how much of a DPS increase 73 crit might be for any particular gear level, but I'm sure you can get the idea. Seeing as how the damage from that libram would also be factored in to crits, it may actually be more of a DPS increase than just that, but I'd have to test to make sure.

EDIT: This was actually discussed in much greater detail on the other Ret thread. The discussion can be found here..

 

Rukiia

I am actually coming round to the fact that this setup will be pretty damn good, anyone else had some thoughts?

 

allutz3rd

Anyone have a parse on Beserking yet?