Left

Kings is going to help against spike damage, but overall I would think the 3% reduced damage input from BoS is going to help your healers more. That and it gives you more mana. What's not to like?

Kings is, of course, my second choice blessing, but I've learned that I can do just fine without it.

EDIT: Although, I suppose versus small hits the extra block value yielded up by Kings might come out to 3% melee damage reduction. For me, for instance, I would get around ~70 strength from Kings, which is ~45 BV. That's a 3% reduction on any melee hit less than about 1500. Nevertheless, the point generally holds, because BoS applies to everything and is better with larger incoming damage.

 

thedopefishlives

This. The extra health is a nice-to-have, but for most situations, 3% damage reduction is enough of an edge that your healers should be able to keep you up just fine. I ran BoS in every heroic I ran, and even when I was grossly undergeared and we weren't able to finish some of the tougher heroics (hi2u Azjol-Nerub), there was never a point where Kings would've made the difference in living or dying versus Sanctuary.

 

Andris

Out of curiousity, how well do you feel Paladin AoE threat stacks up against Warriors and Death Knights? (I know Druids have their own problems here, plus I haven't had the chance to tank with a Druid since I hit 80.)

I've been raiding with a pair of warriors and a DK in similar gear to myself, and I find it difficult to pull more than one or two mobs off of them if they start the pull. (usually with a charge while I'm rebuffing the raid...) Even if I do start the pull, I find that the front-loaded threat from Warriors tends to out-threat Consecrate for the first 5 seconds, after which Damage Shield (I presume) keeps them in the lead unless I actively pull threat on one target at a time.

Part of it may be that I've been enjoying hitting the ShoR button twice, and maybe not squeezing in as many HotR as I might, but I'm wondering if other people have noticed the same problem? One example of this is the large pulls of Mad Scientists and such before Patchwerk -- I feel like I don't really have a lot of aggro/control compared with the Warriors in particular. Of course, we don't really have any trouble with the pulls at the moment, but I'm worried about whether I'll be as useful for AoE pulls as I was before Echoes of Doom.

This also applies when people get trigger-happy on AoE packs like the small spiders in the spider wing -- the boomkins and so forth will sometimes pick up a couple spiders if they Hurricane right after the spiders run into my Consecrate. (This may be a case where lag + movement speed mean that they get a hurricane tick and move right past the Consecrate before it ticks -- I hate that!)

 

Reneda

Shockwave hits for 1.5-2k from a raid buffed Warrior, and if it crits you can see numbers closer to 5k. Personally my consecrate ticks for something around 400 so obviously if they get that first hit off the mobs are going to be on them. And as you said reflective damage is going to keep them on them, as well as TClap being improved (700~ damage now). Nothing you can really do unless you want to focus TPS and taunt a few of them off once they get that going.

 

• Chicken

In a sustained scenario Paladins (And Druids as well though Swipe positioning is hard to get right for them) do definitely still beat Warriors for total AoE threat. Warriors have excellent burst AoE threat tools though, and do fairly well on the AoE threat generation once the mobs are on them. The burst in particular will give the idea that Warriors have vere high AoE threat, if a fight lasts long enough you do typically end up outdoing their AoE threat with Consecration alone, but most AoE takes a very short amount of time.

We typically pull those Mad Scientist packs fast enough that it tends to alternate who ends up tanking most of them ourselves, one pull I'm tanking them, the next pull a Warrior is. This is partly helped by the fact that we tend to pull the abominations groups at the same time as the Mad Scientists to speed up the clear though.

In the end it's also not really a problem though, it's by design that all tanks should be capable of filling both the "Tanking the big dangerous thing" and the "Tanking lots of small things" roles, and I certainly feel we're quite provicient at both, much like Warriors and Death Knights are. Druids have got good potential as well, but as I mentioned above, Swipe is a bit harder to use compared to the AoE threat abilities of the other three tanking classes.

Also on a somewhat unrelated note, I'd really suggest not to (ab)use the unlinked Shield of Righteousness cooldown bug. It's likely to build bad habits, even if the big numbers are pretty.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

thedopefishlives

I've been running a lot with both a Warrior and a DK offtank, and if the mobs actually get to me before either of them engages, I'm usually able to hold most of them. I typically have a pretty aggressive tanking style, though, so it may just be that I'm always running ahead of the pack and getting my Consecrate ticks in before the offtanks catch up. I have more trouble with the DK than the warrior due to the fact that he's usually plopping his Death and Decay right down on top of my Consecrate, and if we time it just right, he'll wind up gaining aggro on the pack I just pulled because of the timing of the ticks.

 

◊ Cathela

Added sections on enchanting and gemming. Basically reference material for each plus a brief "how-to" section. Proofreading and correction would be appreciated.

Also, WoWhead links seem to be screwing up posting, so I'm removing them all for now.

[e]: For some reason the post has reverted to the old form with Wowhead links, so at this point I officially have no idea wtf is going on. (I'm sure I saw it posted in the non-wowhead form after I edited the links out before, although I suppose I could have been mistaken and looking at a preview or something.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Saltycracker

Does Righteous Defense prioritize targets based on how much threat the agroee has on a target?

Say a warrior runs into a pack of 5 mobs and choose a primary threat target. He charges the primary, Thunderclaps and Shockwaves the pack and Shield Slams his main target. A paladin wants to pull some adds off him and uses RD. Would the paladin end up with the warriors' primary target plus 2 adds, three adds not including his primary target, or is it random which RD pulls?

Kind of a philisophical question but it would be interesting to know so I have a good excuse for griefing our Warrior tank.

 

Consecrated

Cathela, one thing you may want to note on your Enchants section is the fact that Blacksmithing's Socket Bracers and Socket Gloves bennies stack with enchants. You don't have to choose them in place of a normal enchant.

 

Smurrf

Although be.imba.hu doesn't seem to recognize this either.

Or at least, they didn't as of a couple of days ago.

 

Soralin

I haven't found anything in this thread on the topic, and this isn't really a "Simple Question" so:

What is, if any, the "sweet spot" as far as dodge and parry go when taking into account diminishing returns? I have heard that warriors stack dodge to a certain value, at which point parry becomes more value after taking into account dodge's DR... is this the case with paladins as well?

Also, I am gearing up my paladin for a tanking role in Sarth+3, what values are people placing on total avoidance (dodge/parry) as compared with shield block? I have been collecting high str and block gear for smoother mitigation as opposed to spikes and this has been fine for all fights I've tanked so far (All of Naxx10 and Sarth10+1), but I'm not sure if this gearing is viable for Sarth+3, or even if I am on the wrong track entirely and should simply be stacking total avoidance rather than block/block value for all fights.

 

galzohar

str and block value generally give a lot less survivability per itemization point than stam/avoidance - just look at the numbers, a 16 str gem for example gives 8 less damage taken on blocks (which aren't even 100% of the attacks that go through avoidance, and doesn't work on magic damage), while a stamina gem gives 293 HP (assuming additive stacking of kings and talents, otherwise it'd be slightly mroe), which is in the area of 0.8~1.2% of the HP you should have. Not that it's directly comparable, but a mob will need to hit for ~1000 after blocks for 8 block value to reduce that damage by 1% (and only when you actually block it). Most mobs that matter hit for way way more than that.

Avoidance is never really bad to have, but keep in mind no matter how much avoidance you have, if your HP isn't high enough you're going to get your ass handed to you on some fights. Avoidance will reduce the total amount of healing you need, but in some cases of either very tough bosses (which usually come with powerful unavoidable magic attacks) or streaks of bad luck, stamina will be the only thing standing for you. Not to mention that in situations where you "have enough HP", stamina, like avoidance, makes your healers' lives easier - however instead of doing it by preventing damage, it does it by letting them be less stressed on keeping you at 100% at all times.

The general advice is to get crit immunity via defense, and then get as much HP as possible while not ignoring avoidance altogether, and even BV/expertise have some survivability value, although not as much. Any hit/str you get is really just a bonus. Anything more specific than those guidlines would be very much dependent on the fight and a lot of other factors.

 

◊ Cathela

Well, you're neglecting talents for strength and blockvalue, as well as BoK. Really it's:

16 str = 16*1.15*1.10*0.5*1.30 = 13.2 final block value

Which is still not a terribly good mitigation increase for the points, admittedly. Straight blockvalue isn't available on gems, but on normal gear +1 blockval costs 0.65 item points, so 16 str (i.e., 16 itemization points) would translate to 24.6 blockvalue on gear, or 32 blockvalue after talents. That's getting a bit more reasonable; it's still not as good for raw survivability as stamina, but it helps your healers out a decent bit.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Soralin

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I'm certainly not gemming for strength - all of my gems are stamina gems. It was more a comment of selecting items that had a high amount of strength along with block rating/value, over total avoidance.

My question was more in gear choices - say I have two pairs of gloves, one has block value and one has dodge rating. It's not quite as simple as that but my question was more along the lines of - should I be focussing on gear that provides total avoidance, or gear (ie: most of the T7 gear) that provides block value and rating. So far I haven't had any problems with my gear (my armory is holy at the moment, but roughly I have 23% dodge, 17% parry and about 20% block with 1500 blocked unbuffed) tanking anything however I'm worried about Sartharion and beyond.

So to distill the question further:

Is total avoidance preferable to mitigation (block value), and
Is there a "sweet spot" with dodge when taking into account DR, it becomes more viable to stack parry, and vice versa for parry to dodge?

 

• Chicken

I personally feel a mix of both mitigation and avoidance is preferable in most situations. That's just a gut feeling though, and not something I can mathematically support. I usually go for ~40% combined dodge and parry, and 20% block, along with enough defense to be uncrittable. This also (nearly?) covers it so that my entire hit table is either blocking or avoidance when I have Holy Shield up, which in turn means that all hits I take are reduced by my block value, which even on hard hitting bosses is high enough to cut of an additional 15% or so damage, which definitely isn't shabby. I'd suggest you check my armory profile for a look at what stats I have exactly, but the armory hasn't caught on to the fact that I renamed my character yet.

Different situations do call for different gear though. I enjoy wearing my highest block value set for heroics and AoE tanking. Doing this puts me at high enough block value that it's effectively total avoidance when the Libram of Obstruction is active, and even when it isn't active I cut off 50-75% of the damage those mobs do with my blocking.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

◊ Cathela

If you have exactly 540 defense and 40% d+p /20% b on the character sheet, you'd be 1.8% shy of full coverage with HS up. However, practically speaking, if you set those as your goals, then when you reach them you'll probably have a little bit of overshoot somewhere or other to make up that gap.

Myself, I think it's a matter of preference, and I think it also depends on what other tanks you typically have in your raids. A druid with equal ilevel gear to you will always have more raw HP than you, so if you can count on having one of those in your raids, then you should assume he's going to handle the fights that call for that and spend most of your effort gearing for other things. But if you don't have a druid around much, you might want to think more about boosting your health pool, cause someone's gonna have to tank those fights.

In practice, this means that for 25-mans you want to specialize a bit in the things paladins are naturally good at (i.e., blocking and AoE tanking) and for 5- or 10-mans you want to be more well-rounded.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

vorda

I'm trying to decide what to gem my red slots (like the malygos q neck) with but ingame comments and small remarks here have confused me a bit.

On the one side, you have 8 dodge 12 sta, which is pretty straightforward. Good gem, probably less good than 24 sta once you start getting some serious diminishing returns from dodge though.

On the other hand, there's 8 expertise 12 sta. But here arises my confusion, lately I've seen it mentioned quite a bit that 'expertise aint that great for paladins' . I can't find the logic behind that statement. We have a lot of our abilities on the melee hit table (or at least I think HoTR and SoR is parry-able?) so that just leaves judgement, HS and consecration.

Assuming parry haste can kill a tank (hopefully in ulduar anyway, if they tune it correctly) and we have a decent amount of GCD's on the melee hit table, how valuable is expertise exactly for us?

 

• Chicken

Only Hammer of the Righteous and our normal melee swings can be parried, this means you have your auto-attack rate along with one additional chance to be parried every 6 seconds. Shield of Righteousness is effectively a ranged attack hit-table wise, so it only hits or misses.

That's a fairly low amount of parry chances already compared to all other tanks (Who use a significantly higher rate of parryable abilities than we do).

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

jere

Not to mention we already get a lot as is. 10 skill from SoV glyph, 6 skill from talents, 3-5 from weapons, you you can have anywhere from 16 to 21 for just being a paladin. The T7 helm also provides some expertise. I wouldn't gem/gear for it specifically. It will come on its own most likely.

 

galzohar

In my opinion, once you're at a gear level where removing normal hits is possible, it should be generally preferable over increasing block value, as you're reducing the maximum amount of (non-magic) damage you can take, on top of the fact that normal avoidance does reduce your overall damage taken by more than anything.
At least when comparing 2 items of equal stamina.

 

• Arikah

Also interested in this... do we share the same DR formula as prot warriors? They seem to think their sweet spot is ~24% dodge...

Cath, please add Heavy Borean Armor kit to the glove enchants section - I find 18 stam a hell of a lot more attractive when compared to armsman or agi or whatever.

 

Andris

I've seen this stated a lot as fact. Do we know that this is true?

The reason I ask is that I seem to have a much higher "miss" rate on my Shield of Righteousness than on other attacks; in fact, my miss rate seems to be similar to Hammer of Righteousness. A WWS from last night; I did change gear a couple times during the night (mostly swapping between threat boots/trinket and bonus stamina/avoidance): Wow Web Stats. That's slightly different gear than I'm wearing now, but I had a 2.6% miss rate on ShoR, 2.6% combined attack fail on melee (2.1% parries), and a 2.3% miss rate on HotR.

Anyone else have WWS, either to confirm this higher miss rate or refute it?

I'm going to be running a fair bit less expertise this week, so I'm going to check the WWS and see what that does to my ShoR miss rate. (I'm replacing Wapach shoulders and Massive Skeletal Ribcage with Valorous Shoulderguards and Chestguard of the Exhausted.) In an amusing side note, we ran 7 healers for the first time this week and I tanked Patchwerk from 40% to 1% on my own. (Well, some melee sacrificed that I might live... ) I'm running the AD tracker from Tankadin2, and I had 11 saves in that time -- totally worth the 5 talent points.

 

jere

This is a WWS parse from a bit ago (probably will expire soon):
Wow Web Stats

I think in one fight ShR had a higher miss rate (loatheb), but in general I saw ShR on the lower end of "all miss" counts while HotR was typically in the same area as melee swing (I think in one fight it was as low as ShR though).

Back in Beta, I tested it a lot and found that ShR seemed only to miss with a normal miss rate, but that was a long time ago and things could have changed since then.

 

Andris

Hmm, your miss rate on ShoR in that sample was 3.9% + 1% other, whereas your melee broke down as:

Miss: 0.5 %
Parry: 6.1 %
Dodge: 1.7 %
Other: 1.0 %

And your HotR
Miss: 0.4 %
Dodge: 1.6 %
Other: 6.1 % (includes parry/deflect)

So, I'm seeing a higher miss rate on ShoR (from both parses) than I would expect if it worked like Judgement. (Your judgement had a 1% miss rate, all "other")

 

• frmorrison

Judgements and Shield can never be dodged/parried. There is a spell in wowhead and millions of attacks to prove that is true.

The reason why Judgement and Shield have different miss rates is our "ghost hit". Ghost hit does not apply to Shield when I use it, I assume because it didn't exist in the spell database back when Precision existed or because it is a ranged attack not a melee attack.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.