• Chicken

I did some testing recently on the patrolling robots past Curator in Karazhan on what "type" each of our attacks have. These robots are good for testing this as they will counter either melee attacks, ranged attacks or spells after saying something about activating their defense mode. The final letter in the sentence they say indicates which one they're currently countering.

Based on these mobs, our abilities currently count as these mechanics:

Avenger's Shield - Ranged
Consecration - Spell (Only triggered a counter attack when initially cast, not on subsequent ticks)
Hammer of the Righteous - Melee (On both primary and secondary targets)
Hammer of Wrath - Ranged
Holy Shield - Did not trigger counter attacks.
Judgement - Melee
Retribution Aura - Did not trigger counter attacks.
Seal of Blood/the Martyr - Melee
Seal of Righteousness - Forgot to test this one.
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption - Spell
Shield of Righteousness - Ranged

And yes, that is no mistake in Judgement being melee and Shield of Righteousness being ranged. I specifically checked both a few times extra since it seems counterintuitive, but those really are the mechanics they count as.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

vorda

Did they recently hotfix holy shield then? I seem to remember it proccing Twilight Torment when we first did sarth+3, I obviously stopped using it on the third drake since so I'm not aware if something changed?

edit: I suppose I'm asking if it still procs torment and bane (in UP), since those spells seemed to react to holy shield as an active ability instead of a reactive.

 

◊ Cathela

That makes sense when you look at this.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Tilted

In regards to threat, just remember that your experience is entirely dependent on how geared your DPS is compared to you. While most of us don't have any threat issues at all right now, that will likely change as subsequent patches are released and we go from ilvl items of 200 to 213, then 226, then 239 or whatever. I know when we first started raiding none of our DPS could come even remotely close to the tanks in threat, but in the last week or so people are catching up quick. Long story short: spec for what your needs are at the time and adjust as needed.

 

◊ Cathela

This is very true, and I think it says something important about the difference in Paladin tanking mechanics between WotLK and TBC. In TBC, so much of our preparation effort (gear selection, enchanting, gemming, etc) went into reaching and then maintaing that 102.4% avoidance target for crushing blows. For all of T4 and a good bit of T5, the only important question about a piece of gear was "How does this affect my crushing-blow situation?" It wasn't until T6 really and then more so in Sunwell that we really had the freedom to start making choices about our gear. Only then did we have the freedom to actually think about what we wanted and start working towards our goals.

Compare that to the situation now. Yeah, getting crit-immunity can be annoying, but reaching 540 defense right now is still way easier than getting crush-immune was in T4 gear. So really, almost from the very beginning, we're getting to make choices about what to do. There's a real difference between gearing for avoidance and gearing for mitigation/stam/EH. Which one is better for you depends on what kind of fights you tank and what other tanks you have in your raids, and now you can actually make that decision and work towards it.

I was of course very happy to hear about the crushing blow change just to get rid of the whole combat-table hassle, but at the time I don't think I really appreciated how much more freedom and how many more gearing options this would open up for us.

(I suppose the change in gear also helps, since there's more tanking gear we can use now as well.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

path411

With the glitch I still use the basic of a 96969 rotation.
I simply replace HotR with the new rank of ShR. Then replace consecrate with HotR. You will still land both ShR inside your libram using this method.

I normally maintain 6-7k TPS with this. (but then I use JoL as well)

 

◊ Cathela

No offense, but the TPS you can get from abusing two bugs that are going to be fixed before any challenging content appears isn't terribly relevant.

I haven't looked at my own numbers; I just look at relative threat, and in tank-and-spank situations it's pretty easy to keep my threat at double that of the nearest dps. I'm sure that'll tighten with gear (as a disclaimer I've been on a break from the game for a month so I don't have much T7-25 gear) but I don't think it'll ever reach the point where bulk threat generation is a problem under "normal" circumstances.

Where I think we'll be challenged in the future are non-standard situations, such as:

• Burst threat on newly-spawned adds, picking them up quickly and letting dps open up fast (e.g., the slime adds on Grobbulus, but in a situation where it's important to kill the adds fast).
• Dealing with threat-reducing abilities or tank-rotation situations (e.g., Gurtogg)
• Situations where your don't get to spend as much time as threat-building as your dps does (e.g., Malygos phase 1, or a similar fight where the cyclone doesn't hurt dps nearly as much))

Assuming this is right, then bulk threat will be important, but so will reliable threat (i.e., hit-capping) and burst threat -- i.e., proper use of cooldowns, and selecting "use" trinkets for threat bursting. (In that vein I'd really love to see a WotLK analog to the auto-blocker.)

[e]: Regarding the two posts below, I hadn't noticed that trinket. BV would be better than BR for the passive effect IMO, but the on-use BV is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Maelstrom

Apologies if I misunderstand, but [Lavanthor's Talisman] from heroic violet hold seems appropriate (Unless you mean an epic version).

 

Threep

The Auto-Blocker had passive block value where Lavanthor's has block rating which does very little for threat.

 

Saltycracker

[Darkmoon Card: Greatness] : the new autoblocker.

 

Maelstrom

The use effect (Which is what Cathela was after) does however provide 240 more block value than the old autoblocker for burst ShoR threat.

As an aside, would I be right in assuming that [Helm of Vital Protection] is generally best for a progression-oriented tank? The T7 25man helm seems itemised almost exclusively for threat, which I'm hardly in need of at the moment (Before any patch comments jump in, I don't use double ShoR or JoL.), whereas additional damage avoidance/mitigation is always good. That said it's a lot of extra BV and strength on the T7 helm. I suppose "both and use them situationally" is probably the ideal answer really, those frostfire mages that win the RNG lottery can get pretty close on aggro sometimes, admiteddly mostly on trash though.

 

bellator

With Diminishing Returns thats not an easy answer as the answer depends a great deal of your other gear. Without diminishing returns, the total avoidance gain you get from Vital Protection over T7 is about 0.97%. In this instance I would say yes Vital Protection is the better choice. However as you gear up, since a lot of the avoidance from this help is through Parry which suffers badly from DR it becomes less effective. As an example in my gear Vital Protection only provides 0.58% more avoidance then T7. In this instance I would personally be in favour of the extra block value.

 

Saltycracker

I'm noticing that rings/amulets don't have green bonus armor anymore but plain white text listing their armor e.g. [Gatekeeper]. Is this armor eligible for multipliers such as Toughness or is it still the same old treatment?

 

◊ Oggie

Just out of curiousity, on stuff like Naxx25, is anyone else starting to approach the DPS's level of DPS? While tanking, of course, I've just noticed (and was talking about it elsewhere) that my numbers are starting to creep upwards.

The primary reason I'm asking is what people think the theoretical maximum on an infinite mana, full best in slot gear, Patch25-style (specifically since he hits so fast, abusing HS).

 

vorda

Highest I've hit on patchwerk is around 2.7-2.8k dps, but I've been OT usually and the only item I'm still missing from my set is the KT axe, which should be some dps added.
(that dps hit is as MT though)

Assuming you outgear patch with current best in slot gear anyway, I'm sure 3k dps should be possible with dps trinkets and block value gear.

edit: just tested with my armor ring (keystone great-ring), the armor gain was affected by both the talent and the meta gem.

 

Prinsesa

My current Armory lists me at 24378 armor.

I'm wearing a total of 20445 armor from plate items, 1040 armor from bonus armor and 272 armor from AGI.

I have Toughness and the Austere Earthsiege Diamond for a 1.122 armor modifier.

If bonus armor was affected by Toughness/AED, then I'd have 24378 armor, calculated from [(20445 + 1040) * 1.122 + 272]

If bonus armor was not affected by Toughness/AED, then I'd have 24251 armor, calculated from [20445 * 1.122 + 1040 + 272]

Since the former calculation matches in-game results, then yes, bonus armor is affected by our modifiers.

Could anyone on the PTR confirm Toughness/AED was affected by the bonus armor changes?

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Ivriniel

Our webstats have not been updated since nobody cares anymore, so I don't have a WWS but according to recount posted in raidchat I managed 3.3k dps on last weeks Patchwork (25man as MT). Keep in mind tough that I am stacking blockvalue as mitigation stat and abuse the ShoR bug. (I think I was using Mighty Fort + Mastery elixir instead of a flask too.)

I think blockvalue as mitigation stat is underrated, and god knows why a protection paladin would use the Armor meta over the block one.

 

Prinsesa

I tend to trust TankPoints implicitly, and it recommended the AED as more TTL than the EED. That being said, I do miss the extra flexibility of the Defense Rating granted by the EED, but not by much.

Perhaps I'll play around with the EED again once 3.0.8 hits and I'm going to gem a new Tempered Titansteel Helm anyway, especially since the SHOR bug and JOL change may make the extra BV that much more valuable again for threat.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Xequecal

Blockvalue isn't underrated, the problem is almost every single item that has blockvalue on it also has block rating on it, which is virtually useless.

 

Damnathor

Long time, no post. For those who don't know me, I was semi-active in the BC tanking paladin forum. Please note that I do not usually go the norm for many of the tanks posting here - take my advice with a grain of salt and be aware I do things a bit unusual compared to everyone else. Here's a couple updates from me in regards to itemization:

1: Block value is *my* single most important stat for mitigation for me ATM. My heals much prefer my slow, steady damage intake over my fellow tanks (especially DK) burst intake. When I shave off ~2300 damage on every attack, it makes many fights a joke. While I do not gem or enchant for it (I will with 40 BV enchant next patch), I do itemize for it.

My current item list, for those who are curious, is:

• Helm: Valorous Redemeption Faceguard (37 stam/20 def enchant, 21 def 5% BV gem, 8 dodge/12 stam gem)
  Neck: Heritage (I want Medallion of the Disgraced from 10man naxx trash)
  Shoulders: Valorous Redemption Shoulderguards (15 def/10 DR enchant, 8def/12sta gem)
  Cloak: Shadow of the Ghoul (16 def enchant)
  Chest: Valorous Redemption Breastplate: (22 defense, 8 dodge/12stam, 16 defense rating{switching soon})
  Wrists: Bindings of the Hapless Prey (8stats, switching to 40 stam)
  Gloves: Gauntlets of the Disobedient (22 agi)
  Belt: Waistguard of the Tutor (24 stam)
  Legs: Valorous Redemption Legguards (55stam/22 agi, 2x 24 stam)
  Boots: Inexorable Sabatons (22stam, 8def/12stam)
  Ring: Sand-Worn Band (24stam)
  Ring: Gatekeeper (24stam) or Deflection Band(24stam) - I honestly am not sure what I'm going to choose yet
  Trinket: Essence of Gossamer
  Trinket: Shadowmoon Insignia (also have Defender's Code)
  Libram: Libram of Obstruction
  Shield: The Skull of Ruin (22 defense - changing next patch)
  Weapon: Last Laugh (20 strength - changing next patch)

2: Threat issues are non existent, even not abusing bugs. I will miss the ridiculous DPS of double-SoR, and I will miss the easy add threat of JoL, but even without them, I have no problems keeping threat over +150% damage, heroism'd, best-in-slot DPS on Malygos.

3: Please note that if I were to choose different pieces, I would have more avoidance, and armor-mitigation - however, my threat would be less, and my healers have never complained about keeping me up. As I said before, some of them have actually told me they prefer my tanking over my warrior and DK counterparts, because I take less burst. My uber-geared feral friend is about the same they say.

4: On 3drake Sarth, I tank all 3 dragons just fine with no problems. All in all, I'm much more pleased with Paladin tanking now than I was when I was MT'ing through sunwell and most of BT/Hyjal.

 

Exewut

Why would you use a BV set while OT patchwork? What you need to do there is use a max avoidance set while still keeping a high enough hp to survive a HS. There's no real benefit to blocking 1k more on a HS when you could be avoiding them, which will lower the incoming damage by a lot and will make it much less likely for the melee/other tanks to die.

Why wouldn't you use [Thane's Tainted Greathelm]? It has way more avoidance and no item budget wasted on expertise. You're right that every self-respecting paladin tank will have a BV/high stam set and an avoidance/high stam set (both sets providing uncrushability or whatever the fancy name is these days).
The threat difference is quite noticeable as well, with full avoidance gear on on PW I'm not going to be above 1800 dps even while maintaining a full rotation (no light, no sor rank 1/2) and my threat would be quite low if it wasn't for the fight mechanics. I don't think we'll be able to shrug off BV/hit/expertise as threat stats for much longer.

On that subject, what is the best way to improve our threat actually?

 

Darion

Quick question for the experts. I'm currently holy but have been putting together a prot set. My unbuffed stats as best I can remember:

25k HP
18.5% dodge
16.8% Parry
10.6% Block
540 Defense

This is just for fun, I doubt I would tank anything more than 10 man Naxx and most likely just heroics. I have 7 gem slots left to fill and 2 enchants. Glove and Weapon enchant which I was leaning towards the +agility. But I'm stuck on the gems. Do I go with +12 sta / +8 dodge? Or +12 sta / +8 defense? Or could go a bit more radical at least on some gems with +16 agility?

I understand dodge is critical for avoidance but I'm trying to decide if the +8 def with peanut buttering the avoidance between miss, dodge, parry, and block is better than pure dodge. Opinions?

 

Exewut

You should be using def over dodge as avoidance as long as you need the the blockrating to push off all the normal hits from the boss' attack table on you.

 

Damnathor

The reason is because your healers are going to be casting those heals anyway. Most holydins I know just tell me they sit back and spam heal and overheal - there's really no point in sidestepping for them and they just keep spamming heals.

Let's do some theory - let's say that over the course of 102 hatefuls, with a base block value of ~2250 (mine raid buffed) and an added block value of 480 to make it 2730(with Libram of Obstruction) up 55% (accounting for lag, delay in activating judgment with 2/2 imp judge) of the time (So, 480 * .55 = 264) - we'll assume you have an average of 2514 block value.

With a 60% block/23% dodge/18% parry chance, and ~31k armor (stoneskin totem, inspiration from priest crit, imp devo aura) you're going to be hit for roughly 12k. Assuming you block 60% of the attacks, you'll shave off 60 * 2514 damage, or 150840 damage. This is damage that your healers will not have to heal, but you'll still be taking damage so their heals won't wasted. Also, with such a high block rate, this is nearly guaranteed blockage - you're very rarely going to get hit for full damage. I will also dodge 23 times for 276000 damage less taken, and parry 18 times, for 216000 damage less taken. I will get a full hit once.

Now let's take avoidance. Let's say you switch gear to avoidance, and you come out with 50% block, 26% dodge, and 22% parry. Your block value will be in the 1300 raid buffed range. Over 102 hits, you'll block 50% of the time, for a total blockage of 64000 damage less taken. Then you'll dodge 26 of the times, for 312000 less taken and parry 22% of the time for 264000 less damage taken. You'll take 4 full hits.

Block value set damage reduction: 150840 + 276000 + 216000 = 642840
Avoidance set damage reduction: 64000 + 312000 + 264000 = 640000

So looking at this, it's actually quite close - you don't take any more or any less damage on these sets. The difference is, you won't get spiked with block value like you will avoidance - with avoidance, if you're unlucky, you can get 3 hits in a row. With block value, it's less based on luck. And remember - your holydin or disc priest or whatever is still going to keep spamming their spell regardless...it's not like they can run OOM.

Just my 2c.

 

Mornil

The problem with Patchwerk is that the hatefuls hit so hard that even pushing your BV to the max won't make any change in the number of unhealed hits you can take before you die. Most tanks will die if they take 3-4 hits in a row without heals regardless of whether they have 1K BV or 3K BV. Using an avoidance set simply reduces the chances that you'll take all those hits back to back; as you said, it's still possible to get unlucky and avoid nothing, but in that case you're probably going to die no matter what kind of BV you're wearing if the heals don't land at the right time.

As you said, the healers never stop casting and never cancel their casts on this fight, so there are always heals in flight. The overall HPS you receive from your healers easily beats the DPS patchwerk does against you, so just looking at overall damage taken for the fight doesn't really matter; your health will get reset to full every couple of seconds. The problem is that if all of the healers' casting times line up, you can have periods of a couple seconds where all of the heals are still in flight and none are landing. These are the times where a string of unavoided hatefuls will kill you, regardless of how much BV you have.