galzohar

Keep in mind that having a greater buffer (aka needing more damage dealt to you until you die) is still the most important. How much total damage you take during the fight is considerably less important. The more damage needed in order to kill you, the less the healer has to pre-cast big heals on you and the more he can focus on other things, like other people in the raid and/or his mana pool. And this can all be done without increasing avoidance or even block value by a single bit - just armor/HP. Avoidance may not be useless, but the general consensus seems to way overvalue it compared to just getting more HP. Also once you have enough HP to the point where at least one of the healers can afford to reactive heal on you rather than proactive heal you, every attack fully avoided while at full HP is another heal that healer can cast on someone else. While blocking in principal may seem better as it's a straight up reliable (assuming block capped) damage reduction, in reality the itemization cost of block is too high for what it gives.

 

SeanDamnit

What's the consensus on armor and it's value relative to other tanking stats? Particularly an item like Cloak of Armed Strife vs an item like Cloak of the Enemy.

According to Rawr, Cloak of Armed Strife is signifigantly better, even though Cloak of the Enemy. has more stam and defense. It looks like Rawr ranks just about any item with better armor higher than items with better stam/avoidence/def.

So is Rawr correct in ranking Armor so high?

Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.

"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh

 

vorda

I value armor very high currently. I actually consider [] to be the second best tanking ring ingame.

A notable part of my mitigation is block (its actually what differs us from other tanking classes), we're talking about a 1.7k ish block value raid buffed. The more I reduce the damage I get pre block, the more significance the act of 'blocking' will have and the less 'bursty' incomming damage will be on me.
It's just a shame that block value is expensive stat point wise, else it might even be worth it compared to armor. But currently, instead of increasing my block value, I'd rather increase my armor and hp. (unless we're talking trivial content like heroics)

Dont get me wrong, I love my avoidance (I actually regret passing on the patchwerk shield, I'm picking it up next time) but when I do take hits, I want them as low as possible. And when I have to make a call on more mitigation or more avoidance, chances are high I'm picking mitigation currently. Its only when more stamina comes into play that I'm having a hard time choosing.


Actually, at end game, the question mostly arises over 2 item slots currently, ring and cloak.
As for rings, [] is nicely itemised but that's where it ends. (the badges ring is 'ok' but not even close for paladins)
[] has pretty much no wasted stats on it (though I'd prefer that dodge rating to be defense rating ) and the massive armor value makes me think its overbudget even.

For cloaks, it's [] vs [], which probably is a closer call. I'd use the badges one if you really need the defense to stay immune or the hit for agro, like on trash. But the armor one is more effective health yet again.


edit: Your question is exactly one of those hard cases. I'd go with which ever tankpoints says is more EH/points, but chances are its going to be a very close call.
If you're going to armory me, dont bother, I'm in ret gear atm to finish some low level questlines. To give you a general idea, Im sitting on around 31.5k hp, 25k armor, 27% dodge, 19% parry, 14% block (or so, something very low anyway) unbuffed.

 

hellasaucy

I agree with this to the point that, if you aren't blocked capped yet. Then that should be one of your higher priorities. I disagree, the amount of damage you take during a fight. I've often seen paladins sacrifice anywhere from 5%~10% mitigation/avoidance in order to get that extra 2k hit points. I don't think they realize what it does to their effective health when calculating.

We are not druids, we are not Warriors, we are not DK's. Holy shield, become block capped and a lower overall base hp is what Blizzard designed our class around. We don't have similar HP because of our mechanics. Once paladins start getting into the 28k~30k range unbuffed, their is not many fights that can instagib us. Especially even at 31k~32k unbuffed paladins seem to be sacrificing a considerable amount of avoidance and mitigation to be in that range, where their Effective Health actually suffers. Even in fights with Sarth and 3 drakes up, with no damage reduction abilities, i.e. divine protection, divine spirit, etc. Several unmitigated melee hits follwed by a flame breath, will instagib you.

When calculating EH as far as melee hits go, it's safe to included your block value into the formula if >102.4%

 

Xequecal

A big hit against the value of armor is that a LOT of the "high-damage" abilities used by bosses are magical damage. Kel'thuzad's Frostbolt, Malygos' breath, Sartharion's breath are all magic damage. Armor isn't useful against these, only Stamina is.

The other factor is, quite honestly, the appearance factor. When you're being judged on your gear as a tank, the vast majority of people judge you by your hitpoints. It's the only stat that's readily visible, and people notice when it's a lot higher than the other tanks. Even if those other tanks actually have more effective HP, other people tend not to notice this. Even if they armory you, most non-tanks don't bother learning the significant of armor and avoidance stats vs. HP, and they won't notice. More HP = better tank. Obviously this shouldn't be a huge issue in advanced raid guilds, but if you're ever competing with other tanks for a pug spot or in some less advanced guilds, HP is king.

 

Prinsesa

If you have no qualms about being duplicitous, you could always throw together a 'high HP to the secure the PUG invites' set then switch over to the outfit you KNOW is better after one or two pulls.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

vorda

Not really, the biggest difference between a 30k hp tank and a 31.5k ish hp tank is probably Jewelcrafting.

32k hp unbuffed is about what you should have with full best in slot gear and proper tradeskills, not sacrificing anything for some stat, just picking the best items currently available.

 

Marlah

Several posts on the two last pages have mentioned something called "block cap". At what % do you achieve this? I did not find anything on the matter in the original post.

 

Exewut

102.4% total avoidance. The diminishing returns for miss aren't known though and the only value you can see on your character screen is the miss% before diminishing returns. So if you have a high amount of defense you'll want to be slightly over the cap just to be sure. (I'd say around 105% should be safe, that's assuming 6% miss turns into ~4% after diminishing returns)

 

raledon

If your sum of your block, dodge, miss, and parry=102.4%, you have reached block-cap. What it actually means is, that every incoming hit will either be completely avoided, or will be blocked.

 

galzohar

Also keep in mind that going above the cap using block rating gives absolutely nothing, while going over the cap with miss/dodge/parry actually helps via extra avoidance (that is, more attacks will be avoided rather than blocked).

 

• Chicken

A correction to what I posted earlier, after checking it again, Judgement is in fact counted as a ranged attack, and not a melee attack.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

• Celenia

I've been trying to run normal Halls of Lightning to get [] but so far no luck. I'm wondering if I should just cook up a [] and put in two [] to give me a lot more flexibility with metagems. Does this sound reasonable or am I overlooking something obvious?

 

• promdates

While not as good defense wise to the Seal of the Pantheon, going with the Monarch Crab+2x Thick Dragon's Eyes would more or less be a better substitute. The gain of 72 stamina for the loss of 11 defense is pretty good.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

Andris

Try this thread on tankspot: WotLK Diminishing Returns - Avoidance - TankSpot

Or this thread on these forums: Combat Ratings at level 80

Each type of damage avoidance (dodge, parry, miss) is affected separately by diminishing returns. The amount used to calculate DR includes both direct ratings like dodge rating, and indirect effects like agility and defense. Different classes have different coeffiients which determine the rate of diminishing returns; in general, parry is hit by DR faster than dodge, although there's generally more dodge than parry on tanking gear anyway. The last time I'd checked, there was some suspicion that miss decayed at a similar rate to parry, although the only way to boost your miss rate is by stacking defense.

The numbers for dodge, parry, and block on your character sheet take into account diminishing returns, the ratings info in the mouseover tooltip does not. (as the DR can vary based on talents and other factors like agility and defense rating)

 

Guybrush

I'll never ever put a prismatic gem in a color slot that give the same benefit but on a smaller amount (In your case a 27 defense gem instead of a 16 one). Of course if you not defense cap if might be useful for you, but in the end of the day you probably have a red or blue gem you can put one of those in to achieve the same effect and also keep your socket bonus. Thing is once you reach the defense cap there really isn't any use for any defense trinkets because they only save you the need to enchant chest/shield/cloak/bracers with defense, and in most of this cases the stamina you gain threw the trinkets is higher then the one you can get from enchanting a shield and a chest.

Mind you the only JC's gems I use are the stamina ones, and I only insert them in yellow/red slots.

 

raledon

I understand you view healthpool over damage reduction. as far as I see it, having def over the 540 does have benefits- more avoidance with less diminishing returns on parry/dodge you get from your gear, as well as no need to fear switching to a different piece of gear because of fear of going below the critimmune. Again, if what you need is health, sta is the way to go- but I disagree that getting more def is bad. Read up about tanks who has more health for show but less effective health versus mobs.

 

• Smithist

Enchanting your chest, shield and cloak would yield 54 defense (or 58 if you get 16 to cloak). There's also a +12 for bracer, but with +40 stam coming soon that would be a last resort. A belt buckle would also give you an extra gem slot to play around with (16 or 27).

 

◊ Cathela

A handy rule of thumb I figured out while writing the OP:

If you're at exactly 50% armor-based damage reduction, every 1% increase in your total armor reduces the physical damage you take by 0.50% (on a relative basis) before blocking.

At 60% armor-DR, every 1% increase in total armor reduces pre-block physical damage by roughly 0.60%, relatively.

At 65% armor-DR, every 1% increase in total armor reduces pre-block physical damage by roughly 0.66%, relatively.

At 70% armor-DR, every 1% increase in total armor reduces pre-block physical damage by roughly 0.70%, relatively.

At 75% armor-DR, every 1% increase in total armor reduces pre-block physical damage by roughly 0.74%, relatively.

So for example, right now I'm at around 60% DR unbuffed in T7 gear. and perhaps 65% buffed, which means that Toughness is worth a bit over 6% physical damage reduction before blocking.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

galzohar

If you're going to put that on the main post (which is a good idea in my opinion), make sure to explicitly say that the extra reduction is in relation to current damage taken. That is, 0.6% less damage than what you currently take, or converting what would now be a 1k unblocked hit to 994.

 

zeida

Minor notes from an engineer:

The nitro boost boots modification may in fact malfunction and knock the user high into the air, dropping aggro, but should this occur, he will not fall to the ground and die instantly; instead he receives the Parachute buff (just as he would being dismounted flying over Wintergrasp or Dalaran) and will fall slowly to the ground. I do not know whether this breaks on damage or not.

They have an additional possible malfunction not mentioned - they will sometimes be fully ineffective and do absolutely nothing.

I personally do have the nitros on my tanking boots as a PoJ specced paladin, simply because I believe having the capacity to quickly cover great distance (even unreliably) is far more potentially decisive than 22 stamina. Obviously, using these things when I am actively tanking a major mob would be irresponsible except in dire circumstances; nonetheless I like having the option available to me.

A note about the pyro rocket modification: They have an extremely wide firing arc (nearly 180 degrees) and a 45 yard range. Although the new single target taunt obviously offers superior damage and threat, and doesn't consume an enchantment slot, it will not possess this range or arc of the glove enhancement. I must confess I do use these, because I like to chain pull trash and they cut downtime substantially, but from a pure tanking standpoint, they are indeed hard to defend in terms of utility and worthiness.

 

Hoffski

When adding these values up, do you factor in +30% block for holy shield and/or redoubt assuming at least one of them is up 100% of the time?

 

Left

Yes.

 

Gunn

I'm curious to know how high folks are getting there HP while raid buffed. I'm at 39k currently with flask/40stam food and regular buffs.

 

Hythloday

Perhaps I can divert this from an epeen-waving contest to something a bit more constructive. I used to use Warcrafter to evaluate potential upgrades and regemmings/re-enchantings (including how huge and impressive I could make my Stamina). It doesn't seem to be totally updated for 3.0, in particular the buffs are still level 70. Are there any up-to-date character profile sites that people are using that actually work fully with 3.0, preferably with the ability to define one's own items/enchants/gems so you can evaluate the impact of PTR changes?