How important is it to get to the block cap? The MT in my guild is a warrior and he pretty much gears purely for as much HP as possible. The way I see it, since we have at least 30% more block than other tanking classes, I gear less for HP and more towards the block and avoidance. For this reason, I currently use [Lavanthor's Talisman] since it gives over 4% block and awesome burst threat. If I swapped that out for [Repelling Charge] I'd be able to gain a lot of HP since I could re-socket and enchant my gear towards it. I'd probably gain over 1k HP, but would effectively be 4% under the block cap. Currently I have over 28k unbuffed HP.
A question regarding the hit table, if I may, as it slightly confuses me.
In attempting to achieve 102.4% avoidance to become unhittable, what do I add up? I assume block, parry, dodge and miss rate.
Do I need to adjust these numbers for mob level? I assume because its 102.4% rather than 100%, we assume before the calculation that the mob is of boss level, thusly reducing .6% from each of the 4 avoidance/mitigation stats when actually in combat.
As well, is it safe for me to assume that monsters miss rate on me is 5% + Reduction from defense? Or does it change from monster to monster, and do level 83 mobs infact reduce this number by exactly .6%?
You can use the macro listed above and that should tell you what your total chance to mitigate damage (dodge/block/parry/miss). It's 102.4% required because of the mob level. Each mitigation chance is lowered by .2% per mob level
Real quickly what is being refered to when you say the 'Block Cap'. I'm assuming it's gaining complete hit immunity since I haven't heard of block value having a hard cap set for it.
A question regarding the hit table, if I may, as it slightly confuses me.
In attempting to achieve 102.4% avoidance to become unhittable, what do I add up? I assume block, parry, dodge and miss rate.
Do I need to adjust these numbers for mob level? I assume because its 102.4% rather than 100%, we assume before the calculation that the mob is of boss level, thusly reducing .6% from each of the 4 avoidance/mitigation stats when actually in combat.
As well, is it safe for me to assume that monsters miss rate on me is 5% + Reduction from defense? Or does it change from monster to monster, and do level 83 mobs infact reduce this number by exactly .6%?
It rarely ever changes from monster to monster. The only exceptions can easily be counted on your hand (trash in Magheridon's Lair for example). In general:
Equal Level Mob = 100.0%
+1 Level Mob = 100.8%
+2 level Mob = 101.6%
+3 level Mob = 102.4%
and so on
It is dodge+parry+block+miss
Miss = 5% + portion from defense/talents (you have to adjust the portion from defense with respect to Diminishing Returns of course, just like dodge and parry)
Originally Posted by Reneda
Real quickly what is being refered to when you say the 'Block Cap'. I'm assuming it's gaining complete hit immunity since I haven't heard of block value having a hard cap set for it.
The Block Cap is the point at which any additional block rating or block percent will no longer provide you any extra benefit. It happens when dodge+parry+block+miss = 102.4%
It has nothing to do with block value at all, though you can reach a point where your block value is higher than some mobs hit for (but typically not bosses)
That's working as intended. 1500*(1+.3+.05) is the calculation.
Why is this working as intended though?
Other similar calculations such as stamina increases from combat expertise, sacred duty and bok work multiplicitively X*1.06*1.08*1.1 as opposed to additiively X*(1+.06+.08+.1).
Edit:: before you read this, realize that I'm making this post because it seems people are getting riled about the math regarding benediction as opposed to actual situations
Actually, to be completely honest, the arguments for benediction strike me as completely inconsequential. There's everything from 'i don't have to drink during heroics' to 'it elongates mana usage during 25 man boss fights'. But somehow neither of those make sense to me.
If you're geared poorly, and you're running heroics, then you're getting a ton of mana back anyhow, from spiritual attunement as well as sanctuary. You will more then like stay topped off, period, not even considering Divine Plea. Also in heroics is the fact that you are typically tanking 3+ mobs per pull, and I hardly think mana return would be a problem at that point.
If you're geared poorly and running 25 mans, it's the same case.
If you're geared well and running heroics, your threat is also proportionally higher, and thus, you're not having to use as much mana. What damage you don't take due to higher block value or additional dodge / parry percentage, you make up for in threat (also due to block value and additional gear itemization, i.e., 2-pc set bonus, higher dps main hand weapon, better stats), and so, you don't have to use as much mana to generate as much threat. Also included is the number of mobs (mentioned before) that you typically tank during a heroic (3+). Add in Divine Plea, and maybe situational problems are taken care of. Maybe I'm mistaken, but is there already a gear threshold at which you are tanking heroics and you mitigate SO MUCH damage that you're scrounging for mana? I highly doubt it.
Well geared and running 25 man content? I honestly can't see the argument for this either. Even if it's worst case scenario, and you're tanking a boss that doesn't hit hard, doesn't hit fast, with the inability to receive heals and thus affects spiritual attunement mana return, you STILL have divine plea, not to mention that more then likely either a shadow priest or a ret paladin would be able to bolster your mana return. Also, your Hand of Sacrifice as well as Hand of Salvation seem to be ready and able solutions in that particular situation. Loatheb seems worst case, and I've never had any issues with mana tanking him.
I guess my two basic questions are, 1) is there already a gear threshold at which you are tanking heroics and you mitigate SO MUCH damage that you're scrounging for mana? and 2) In what possible raid situation are you that you have so little incoming damage and so little incoming mana that it is worth it to spec into Benediction?
Last edited by honorstrike : 01/25/09 at 10:07 PM.
Reason: Clarification
It actually surprises me that there is so much controversy over the Benediction decision. What are the choices again? Extra run speed that isn't in any way vital and some cheaper spells that aren't in any way vital? Flip a coin and be done with it!
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Edit:: before you read this, realize that I'm making this post because it seems people are getting riled about the math regarding benediction as opposed to actual situations
Actually, to be completely honest, the arguments for benediction strike me as completely inconsequential. There's everything from 'i don't have to drink during heroics' to 'it elongates mana usage during 25 man boss fights'. But somehow neither of those make sense to me.
If you're geared poorly, and you're running heroics, then you're getting a ton of mana back anyhow, from spiritual attunement as well as sanctuary. You will more then like stay topped off, period, not even considering Divine Plea. Also in heroics is the fact that you are typically tanking 3+ mobs per pull, and I hardly think mana return would be a problem at that point.
If you're geared poorly and running 25 mans, it's the same case.
If you're geared well and running heroics, your threat is also proportionally higher, and thus, you're not having to use as much mana. What damage you don't take due to higher block value or additional dodge / parry percentage, you make up for in threat (also due to block value and additional gear itemization, i.e., 2-pc set bonus, higher dps main hand weapon, better stats), and so, you don't have to use as much mana to generate as much threat. Also included is the number of mobs (mentioned before) that you typically tank during a heroic (3+). Add in Divine Plea, and maybe situational problems are taken care of. Maybe I'm mistaken, but is there already a gear threshold at which you are tanking heroics and you mitigate SO MUCH damage that you're scrounging for mana? I highly doubt it.
Well geared and running 25 man content? I honestly can't see the argument for this either. Even if it's worst case scenario, and you're tanking a boss that doesn't hit hard, doesn't hit fast, with the inability to receive heals and thus affects spiritual attunement mana return, you STILL have divine plea, not to mention that more then likely either a shadow priest or a ret paladin would be able to bolster your mana return. Also, your Hand of Sacrifice as well as Hand of Salvation seem to be ready and able solutions in that particular situation. Loatheb seems worst case, and I've never had any issues with mana tanking him.
I guess my two basic questions are, 1) is there already a gear threshold at which you are tanking heroics and you mitigate SO MUCH damage that you're scrounging for mana? and 2) In what possible raid situation are you that you have so little incoming damage and so little incoming mana that it is worth it to spec into Benediction?
I do not understand your first question.
If I just hit 80 and begin to tank with basic gear I will benifit the most from Spiritual Attunement. That is logical, since I am not block capped I will be taking a lot of hits, thus requiring heals. On the other hand, if I am tanking with full epic set, am block capped or close to, I will mitigate or avoide more or less all incoming damage. Meaning, I am constantly getting 2% total mana in return from Blessing of Sanctuary.
Therefore there should not exist a gear treshold where you start to scrounge on mana, even during the situations you described (tanking slow attacking caster mobs). Either you take damage (which you will do while fighting casters) regardless of your gear) and regenerate mana via SA, or it is mitigated and you still get mana return.
In heroic situations new at 80 with a basic starting set for tanking I will of course take more dmg and in return maintain lots of mana, in reality the amount of mana you have is overkill as paladins have no problem with threat, regardless of gear. While my gear becomes better I can stop spamming consecrate on every pull and still maintain threat. So even if I would be fighting lots of casters (like in Nexus), not mitigating or avoiding and just relying on SA mana regen. I should still be okay by just cutting down on my expenses.
Regarding your second question. Since I am mostly main tanking during my raids I never have a mana problem. The most mana starved fights is without doubt Loatheb and even then I manage without a problem. As a offtanking paladin I can see a problem, our mana while not taking dmg is of course a catastrophe. Other situations, like tanking blazes on Sartharion mana might be a problem, they spawn everywhere and mana is needed to catch and hold aggro on them all.
Offtanking, I usually have little problem with mana.
Aggro generation is so obscenely high that when I am offtanking I can have seal of wisdom up and drop judgement of wisdom on the mob. Especially if I am tanking multiple mobs (and as raid lead I generally set up the pulls so I am :P ), I get a ton of mana on each swing of HotR.
Honestly, I rarely even have to use seal of corruption to keep my aggro up. I think I use wisdom 90% of the fights (and thus I usually have damn near full mana)......
On another note, what is the hit cap for our new taunt, Hand of Reckoning? I haven't seen it miss yet, but I am sure it is only a matter of time. I am at the hit cap for RD with the glyph, but wanna be sure to have my bases covered.
Therefore there should not exist a gear treshold where you start to scrounge on mana, even during the situations you described (tanking slow attacking caster mobs). Either you take damage (which you will do while fighting casters) regardless of your gear) and regenerate mana via SA, or it is mitigated and you still get mana return.
There is. If I were to wear my basic MT tank set (I should be in it on my armory now) during heroics and not use SoW/JoW, I'd go oom. Something like violet hold by example can make me go oom.
A lot also depends on the DPS your group is pushing. I usually never do PuGs, which means that Im going with guildies who instantly AoE everything they see. I can't slack off for a few seconds and regen mana in big packs.
That being said, I don't have benediction nor would I take it. I prefer drinking for a few seconds between packs.
Other similar calculations such as stamina increases from combat expertise, sacred duty and bok work multiplicitively X*1.06*1.08*1.1 as opposed to additiively X*(1+.06+.08+.1).
Why is it different for Block Value?
Perhaps the better way to put it is that it is working as it always has. The original BV meta from BC worked the same way. Whether it is intended or not has never been clarified by blizzard to my knowledge. So this new one acting this way is not a surprise anymore (it was back in the TBC days when we first discovered it, but that has been a while now).
but...SOW/JOW is something that it's ok to use if you're generating enough threat.
You use the bigger damage seals when you are undergeared. That lets you generate more threat while relying on getting smacked around+healing to generate mana.
If you're too overgeared for SOW/JoW to do enough, then use Seal of Martyr.
We can pretty much tune mana recovery to our gear most of the time, and can do it on a fight-by-fight basis.
For times when I guess wrong - a single mana pot and/or lay on hands pretty much fixes things up (it's safe to use LoH for mana if you're running out, cause it means the mob is hitting like a little girl and you won't needed it as an "oh crap" button)
If I'm not tanking I'm kinda crappy dps anyway (I've done this on ocassion, and have sometimes been useful as backup healer or tank in tank gear in addition to being half a dps slot and I'd probably suck even more as a retadin having never played one) and am running SOW and JOW fulltime, divine plea on every cooldown etc. I can generally sustain a rotation long enough, with consecrate on shorter fights. The man potion burn is higher though and I'll drink between pulls when I get a chance.
When doing that though I don't advertise as DPS. I say "would an offtank/dps be ok" cause tank and healer slots are already taken. These days the answer is "yes" in heroics cause 2 DPS is really enough if they have gear. In a raid I'd stick to tank or offtank, and not try to limp along as either healer or dps without a proper spec.
is the diminished stat before converting to IEEE754. is the stat before diminishing returns. is the cap of the stat, and changes with class. is is a value that changes with class.
This is calculating miss gained from defense, correct? IE, it should be added to the base miss rate of 5.0% to get intelligible results.
EDIT: To the poster below me, yes, that's what I was trying to say. The above formula gives only miss from defense above 400. The result should have 5.0% miss (unaffected by DR) added to get a total number that actually makes sense.
[Titanium Weapon Chain]: +28 hit rating, 50% reduction in duration for disarm effects.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency]: +20 strength
The Titanium Weapon Chain is very nice for hit-capping, and until patch 3.08 it's probably the best overall value even if you have Pursuit of Justice (they don't stack). Accuracy has almost as much hit rating and a lot of crit, so it's a solid enchant but extremely expensive right now. Exceptional Agility is the only option if you want avoidance. Potency is included because it's the only +strength enchant, so it's the only way to increase block value if that's what you're really after.
I have read through a couple of threads here but see no mention of Mongoose for tanking. Is there any theorycrafting around Mongoose on main hand compared to Potency? Personally I think out of those mentioned, Potency is the best bet for a Pala tank...but Mongoose would definitely be better for mitigation if it procs enough.
This is calculating miss gained from defense, correct? IE, it should be added to the base miss rate of 5.0% to get intelligible results.
EDIT: To the poster below me, yes, that's what I was trying to say. The above formula gives only miss from defense above 400. The result should have 5.0% miss (unaffected by DR) added to get a total number that actually makes sense.
I have read through a couple of threads here but see no mention of Mongoose for tanking. Is there any theorycrafting around Mongoose on main hand compared to Potency? Personally I think out of those mentioned, Potency is the best bet for a Pala tank...but Mongoose would definitely be better for mitigation if it procs enough.
There is a decent breakdown of various enchants in the Wowhead comments section for Mongoose which may be enlightening. On average, Mongoose provides ~60 armor and ~0.76% dodge (before diminishing returns). That assumes a 25% uptime, ie 15 seconds worth about once per minute. The variability is part of the issue, of course, since you can't rely on that armor to be there when you need it.
When Mongoose does proc, it gives you 240 armor. I'm not 100% sure what the formulas are for level 80 (ThinkTank article still has level 70 values), but let's assume the general formula given still applies:
For comparison, Potency (20 STR) gives 14.95 block value (assuming full Vitality and Redoubt). For 14.95 BV to give a reduction of at least 0.22% or 0.06%, your incoming hits would need to be:
14.95 / 0.0022 ~= 6595
or
14.95 / 0.0006 ~= 24916
6595 as an incoming hit value is actually a hit of ~2600 post armor, which is pretty small. Not a hit size you'll see in raids a lot. So during the proc, Mongoose is significantly superior to Potency in terms of effective damage reduction, plus it gives dodge. However, 24916 is a hit of ~10000 post armor, which is a hit size you'll see much more often in a full raid. So averaged out, Mongoose may not really provide much more benefit than Potency for overall mitigation.
Of course, the biggest downside to me is that it is a proc. For tanking, I want a reliable number; I can't count on that extra 0.22% DR when I really need it because the proc could be on cooldown. I can count on 20 STR, or +28 Hit (what I actually use), to always be there, however.
EDIT: I should clarify that +28 hit doesn't given any mitigation value. I just was using it as an example of a static enchant.
The first post still say ProtPaladin would not have a single target taunt. This has changed in 3.0.8, so it would be cool to add it to the post and to also rework the parts which talk about SoR ...
I have read through a couple of threads here but see no mention of Mongoose for tanking. Is there any theorycrafting around Mongoose on main hand compared to Potency? Personally I think out of those mentioned, Potency is the best bet for a Pala tank...but Mongoose would definitely be better for mitigation if it procs enough.
Unless I misread or am otherwise mistaken the proc-rate of Mongoose is 1 PPM. Supposedly the proc-rate has been normalized (though I can't find any information confirming this) so its uptime should be fairly predictable. Obviously +120 AGI will buy you more mitigation than the +26 AGI enchant; on the other hand though you have to contend with the uptime of Mongoose. Personally, I don't like hoping that a proc occurs when I need it. I currently utilize the +26 AGI enchant which has a 100% uptime since I like to know exactly where my mitigation stands before I go into a fight. Additionally, the +26 AGI enchant is budget friendlier to the prohibitively costly Mongoose in my opinion.
Having said all that I'd love a new 1-hand enchant that gives 30-40 STR since there is no updated "must have" tanking enchant for 1-hand. The 50 AP from Greater Potency is only useful for DPS in my opinion.
01/23/09, 9:13 AM
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