IronMonkeyL255

That would be great.

I have the titanium weapon chain on my weapon for the hit. This frees up about 2 gem slots I would otherwise need to put hit gems into, and the reduced disarm duration helps (though honestly I barely notice it).

 

jere

The odd thing is that the old potency enchant +20 STR is better dps for us than the AP versions. 20 STR gives the same amount of DPS as 75-80 AP would based on how our abilities scale and using our ideal rotation.

 

hellasaucy

I honestly don't see the theory behind stacking hit over mitigation/effective health gems. I've yet faced an encounter where I "wished" I had more hit cause my TPS was so low or anything else for that matter.

Imo the +26 agility is the superior avoidance enchant, static over proc chance enchant. .5% dodge that I can count on.

 

thedopefishlives

Having hit isn't about TPS, it's about snap aggro. If a mob should come loose during an AoE pull and go wandering after my Hurricane-happy boomkin, or if my blood DK forgets to swap out of Frost presence and pulls aggro, I want to make sure that my next high-aggro move connects. If you think scenarios like the above aren't all that common, I had both of them happen to me yesterday. I don't really think we should gem for hit, but I enchanted +20 hit to gloves and I have a titanium weapon chain on my sword. It's my personal opinion that we have enough defensive enchants on our other gear slots that we can afford to use the weapon enchant for aggro.

 

Saltycracker

Gearing for trash pulls isn't the most efficient use of your gemslots/enchants, especially considering that trash is level 81 or 82 that has a smaller hit cap to pull.

On a similar note, being the drake tank on Sarth, its frustrating to see my hand of single target taunt resist =/

 

SeanDamnit

Regarding mongoose, 26 agi, 20 str, etc:

Sometimes I think we need to step back and really look at the benefit some of these enchants are providing. I've read a few people say that they prefer an enchant like 26 agi or 20 str because they can depend on the .5% dodge or 14 block value - but really, do either of those enchants provide a noticeable benefit to you? If those enchants suddenly stopped working today, would you notice? Would your Sart+3 run be any different without them?

Probably not. That's what makes me prefer Mongoose over the static enchants. When it procs, I notice a difference, and I would notice it if it wasn't there.

That being said, I still use the 28 to hit as I feel that makes an even more signifigant difference. There's nothing wrong with gearing/enchanting for trash so long as it isn't replacing something important for boss tanking. The weapon enchants for Paladins are just not important for boss tanking, so +hit, I feel, provides the most benefit.

Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.

"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh

 

Regan_

Well, this game is made up of insignificant numbers that add up to not-so-insignificant ones.

Sure, I wouldn't miss my +26 to agi enchant if I lost it. I could probably do without the extra +2 item points that i get from blue gems instead of green ones... or even the extra armor I get from imp. devo.... but a little bit here, a little bit there... and it ends up making a difference.

 

SeanDamnit

And I would agree with that if my attitude towards the weapon enchant carried over to my gem/gear/talent choices, but it doesn't. I feel that all of the "little bit heres" and "little bit theres" are already abundant enough to make a difference, and really don't have any strong controversy that would make me want to choose something that strays away from the cookie cutter.

The weapon enchant, on the other hand, is really insignificant - be it Potency, Agility, Mongoose, or the Weapon Chain.

The choice between those options just doesn't feel like it carries the same weight as a choice between a stam gem vs a def gem, or Imp Devotion Aura vs Improved HoJ.

Now, if Blizzard introduced and updated +str enchant, or a proc based tanking enchant, then we can have decisions with that will noticeably effect our tanking.

Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.

"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh

 

skythra

Taken out of context - i never noticed the difference upgrading a T7.0 to a T7.5 but I did it anyway.

I think that's a fair call to decide based on that, but thats if it follows the way you tank. For example, I try to think from the healers PoV and if it will provide a benefit for them. Maybe 26agi over a period of a raid may end up being beneficial if you calculated the extra dodges it provided. But for a specific fight, if you proc that and dodge a few attacks in a short burst: you may provide your healers with a OOC mp5 regen period.

I feel this is something i've not considered. It would further raise questions of whether or not to proc a trinket at the same time, and almost garantee being hit significantly less for a brief burst. Maybe with diminishing returns, might be better to use it straight after the mongoose proc to drag out the higher dodge rate.

Im not sure, but i like thinking about it. Thank you.

 

Dippyskoodlez

Hateful tanking patchwerk is a prime example. I've had runs where I've pulled an effective 45% dodge rate. I've had other runs where I get less effective dodge than my paper doll lists. You can control your avoidance in so many ways, yet the RNG can still say NO. I really wish blizzard would give us a fun tanking enchant.

Regarding hit rating, I've managed to go from about 38 to 230 hit without losing hardly any avoidance/stamina, so not being hit capped IMO is a pretty poor tanking choice, especially with the fact that we dont get a hand of taunt glyph to cap it, and maybe not everyone here is as far progression wise, but I'm starting to see DPS keeping up with my TPS. A Missed shield slam, is a LOT of threat. 25 man gear is also LOADED with hit rating!

 

skythra

But only a lot of threat in the short term. Honestly, if you are making a healers job harder because your dps cant hold off for 2-3 more seconds when in the blizzard UI even there are threat meters, then i'd be talking to the dps.

Its also loaded with alternatives which has those points spent on avoidance. my hit can fluxuate between 90-200 without changing the overall item value i have equiped.

Im not saying hit rating isnt important - because i'm seeing some mages (especially with them bursting up over 7K dps), but its also something that is a guild decision. Whats more beneficial for this fight? Ending it sooner or making it easier to survive?

 

• Smithist

@Skythra: Again, people are not talking about hit with respect to threat done over the course of a fight. The goal is to maximize snap aggro capabilities for things like fresh spawns or adds during fights. Obviously one missed Shield Slam over the course of a fight is not a big deal but if your first shield or HotR on a freshly spawned mob misses, this can lead to problems.

This is not meant to imply that a weapon chain is superior, by the way. Ultimately the current choices are such that it's a matter of personal preference, as none of them are really that great.

my paladin

 

Academic

Single target: Judgement, ShoTR, Excorcism

Multi Target: AS, HoR, Consecrate, Holy Shield, Holy Wrath

We have multiple spells at our disposal, especially in zones such as Nax. Hit comes at the expense of avoidance stats. Especially with hand of reckoning i see it even more of a non-issue anymore. Reckoning fails, damn, I gotta do Righteous Defense, MT Get Ready to retaunt off me. Communication, as well as compentant dps can certainly make up for your lack of hit.

I've certainly have had no issues with MT'ing a group that down patch were in under 2:30, or DPS zerging Thane.

On Sarth+3D is whelp tanking is becoming an issue for you, cordinate with your dps when they can start blowing adds, tell your healers to move on top of you so that consecrate can get it's tick in. We're meatshields, and we certainly have enough tools in our arsenal to make sure we're doing our job holding threat. If not, well then, you're doing it wrong.

To the Paladins who exploited, you lost your crutch now.

 

• Smithist

That last line makes no sense in the context of your post so I don't know what that's about.

At any rate, I was just clarifying the typical motivation for a chain. You'll notice I don't mention gemming, enchanting, or choosing gear specifically for hit, and am just referring to a chain vs. the other lackluster weapon enchant choices. 26 agility has it's uses, I just think of the chain as a nice opportunity to grab some bonus hit without having to give up anything particularly spectacular.

my paladin

 

jere

I think he is referring to the double ShoR that was fixed recently.

 

Academic

This^ As well as the Judgement of Light fix to those who exploited that as well.

I digress.

26 bonus agility is quite nice, that's nearly .5% dodge before diminishing returns. Although yes, diminsing returns is pretty bad in my case considering it only nets me .35% dodge w/ Valor of Medal and .37% w/o Valor of Medal. I find that substantial enough to make it trump any other existing enchant, as well it's relatively inexpensive imo. It's an amazing, static pure avoidance enchant.

 

Left

A minor note: the above line in the first post (underneath the Shield of Righteousness discussion) is no longer accurate given the introduction of Hand of Reckoning. Probably should be updated at some point.

 

IronMonkeyL255

I am putting hit on there purely so my taunt is hit-capped.

There are quite a few fights where taunting back and forth of the boss is paramount (and I have wished the other tanks I run with would at least get closer to capping theirs since it hurts when they miss a taunt and I have to keep building stacks of Kor'thazz's debuff while waiting on their cooldown), not to mention if my DPS gets a few lucky procs and manages to snag a few stragglers. I like to be able to reliably pick them up.

As it is, I have just a few hit gems to reach the cap, and as my gear gets better, I can swap them out for more mitigation/EH gems (with the cape I just got from Saph, I only have a single hit gem in my gear).

I am not doing it from a DPS perspective, for your information.

 

vorda

I think for nearly everyone it boils down to this: if we had an enchant with the item value of Accuracy put into stats that considerably help our survival (after diminishing returns), we would choose that. But since we don't, we're going for the best utility enchant possible. And currently, that is (imo) Accuracy.

ps: if you did bother to armory me, you'll see I'm using +agi currently though. 6 weeks and counting for the KT axe to drop.

 

skythra

I just feel that with two taunts, hand of sacrifice and hand of protection - if something goes wrong we've got skills we can use before we start gearing.

However i main tank for the guild so there are very few bosses (i think of only 2 off the top of my head) where adds are a concern for me personally. But thats a decision i make that works with the style of tanking i use and my guildies are used to, I've probably trained them through trial and error to watch their aggro. I hope not.

edit: i guess what i want to summary here, that in an offtank role with adds that really need to be nuked down, it might be viable for the weaponchain to be your weapon enchant. It would be more worthwhile as soon as skills like taunt didn't work.

 

Academic

You don't nearly have enough dodge for it to be so affected by DR that it would make it a less worthwhile enchant. You do in fact stack enough parry where agility enchant would yield you more survivability on your gloves.

 

thedopefishlives

There seem to be two schools of thought here. One school of thought says, "We have enough buttons to push, if X misses we can hit Y, or Z, or some combination of the above and get aggro back." The other school of thought says, "There are/may be situations where if X misses, I won't have time to hit Y or Z before something bad happens." I guess it really comes down to your tanking style and the role you expect to play. If you play aggressively as a tank with fast aggro-building and allowing your DPS to open fire immediately, obviously Accuracy or the weapon chain are going to be very appealing because one missed attack means someone's going to get eaten. If you play more conservatively and anticipate having the luxury of time to build adequate aggro, you would be more oriented toward Agility.

 

Saltycracker

I supposed Blizzard is looking at a potential tanking enchant that is more interesting that a simple +omgstam to weapon.

In my opinion an interesting/unique tanking enchant must meet a few qualifications:

1) Small static stamina boost. Stam is all around the best stats for tanking across all classes, but making a pure stam enchant is bad for the game as its just forces the devs to make stuff hit harder to compensate.

2) Proc boost (Avoidance/Armor/Other): I would suggest a Str or Parry proc bonus for ProtPally/War and DKs, but it would screw feral druids. I don't know how good the DK runeforge is and if a normal enchant would be any better. I don't think Druids would care as agility is the best stat for them to stack next to stam if I recall correctly. Armor would be an interesting proc, but it would have to be in the 1000+ range to actually be worth using. As far as other options I can think of, a spell resist mechanic would be interesting, but probably fairly useless. A Stam proc wouldn't really help as it would just mess with your healers, and too RNG to be useful.

3) Uses for something other than tanking. Mongoose was very well executed in BC as it worked for DPS and tanks. This time around, something that could be used for PVP/melee would be just as welcome.

4) Pretty colors on your beatstick of choice. Cmon, the enchant graphics so far in WOLK are terrible.

I am in favor of a Stam + Parry or Str proc enchant. It would be useful for PVP, as well as tanking.

 

Jogin

Just wanting your guys input on what you feel the best Prot Pally spec would be. This is what I have come up with.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

I went with imp HoJ for interrupts, so I can cast them more often.


Thanks for your input,
Jogin

DK's runeforge is pretty nice from what I hear, I believe its 25 defense to 2 hander, pretty nice considering they have a hard time getting defense capped.

 

Left

A bit of a digression, but...

Apart from anti-magic or just pure damage output runes, DKs get three options for tanking type runes:
Rune of Swordshattering
Rune of the Fallen Crusader
Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle

The Fallen Crusader rune isn't just about the healing; Strength for DKs also increases their parry rating on a 4:1 ratio. So a Strength proc for them adds avoidance as well as damage output.

Creating static value type enchants along these lines for all tanks would be neat. How about a static strength + agility proc enchant? Or an static armor + strength proc? Etc.