The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK) - Page 24

lopht · 02/13/09, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Looking forward, how neatly (or messily) would the 15s Exorcism fit into our 96969 rotation, assuming the Undead/Demon limitation is indeed lifted and it becomes a standard weapon against everything?

On single target fights, I'd replace Hammer of Righteousness by Exorcism whenever it's up.

Although I don't know if it's worth (threat-wise) because I don't know the threat values for Exorcism.

promdates · 02/13/09, 5:26 AM

Originally Posted by lopht

On single target fights, I'd replace Hammer of Righteousness by Exorcism whenever it's up.

Although I don't know if it's worth (threat-wise) because I don't know the threat values for Exorcism.

According to my last Patchwerk kill, here is the average damage:

(+) Hammer of the Righteous	2,695
(+) Exorcism (r9)	        2,287

I'm still unsure of what the sp/ap coefficient is, but as of right now at the end of current t7 content, hammer beats exorcism slightly in threat. Each fight that I had used Exorcism on is less damage done than HoR, even a crit HoR dwarfs the Exorcism in damage.

• frmorrison · 02/13/09, 11:35 AM

Remember Exo is a spell, so is affected by spell hit, crit and crits for 1.5, and in 3.1 there will be shiny new tanking weapons to make Hammer hit harder.

Cathela · 02/13/09, 11:37 AM

As of 3.0, Exorcism had a 15% AP coefficient and a 15% SP coefficient. HotR has (effectively) a 28.5% AP coefficient in addition to scaling with weapon damage, so gear upgrades are going to favor HotR.

Saltycracker · 02/13/09, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hythloday

I went over 7 or 8 WWS log parses, and couldn't find any resists on the DoT, so if you can share one that would be great. What I found was that the misses that come up on the summary are for applications of the DoT, and have no practical effect on threat generation.

I cross checked the dot misses with weapon misses and most of them don't line up.

I guess its hard for WWS to tell if the refresh misses, or if the actual damage from the DoT misses. I'm guessing this is a combat log or WWS bug because I looked through and sure enough patchwerk took a tick every 3 seconds, although there are plenty of partial resists which cant be done anything about.

This stuff is just weird:

20:01'41.326 Saltycracker melee swing hits Patchwerk for 1245 Physical. (Critical)
20:01'41.336 Saltycracker Seal of Vengeance misses Patchwerk.
20:01'41.527 Saltycracker Seal of Vengeance hits Patchwerk for 11 Holy.

20:01'19.101 Saltycracker Seal of Vengeance hits Patchwerk for 16 Holy. (Critical)
20:01'19.101 Patchwerk's Holy Vengeance is refreshed.
20:01'19.321 Saltycracker attack misses Patchwerk.

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Hythloday · 02/13/09, 1:06 PM

Maybe I was unclear - SoV application is, in effect, a 2-roll system - first you have to melee hit, then you have to spell hit the SoV dot. (To my knowledge it's the only spell like that in the game. Maybe someone can correct me?) So a missed melee swing can't miss the spell, but a hit one can.

SoV is applied from melee specials too, in particular Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous.

spell="shield of righteousness" or spell="hammer of the righteous" or (event="swing_damage" and source="saltycracker") or (spell="holy vengeance" and event="spell_missed")

Matches perfectly, in my experience.

Saltycracker · 02/13/09, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Hythloday

SoV is applied from melee specials too, in particular Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous.

Ah, I forgot about those. Good catch.

Now I just wish that SoV would be an automatic hit if you hit with melee.

Kinda off topic, but I see Tankadins being the best scaling threat tanks in the game as out threat scales with stamina, weapons, shields, and strength.

• frmorrison · 02/13/09, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

I guess its hard for WWS to tell if the refresh misses, or if the actual damage from the DoT misses.

20:01'41.326 Saltycracker melee swing hits Patchwerk for 1245 Physical. (Critical)
20:01'41.336 Saltycracker Seal of Vengeance misses Patchwerk.
20:01'41.527 Saltycracker Seal of Vengeance hits Patchwerk for 11 Holy.

I am fairly certain DoTs cannot miss (once they are up on the target). It appears that what happened is at first SoV misses (seals and melee each roll for hit, and SoV uses spell hit/crit), then 0.2 seconds later SoV hit with one of your special attacks.

Edit: little slow

Nal · 02/13/09, 5:58 PM

There's three things going on with Seal of Vengeance/Corruption.

First, there's the damage portion after you've built to 5 stacks. This can miss.
Second, there's the tick of the dot. This cannot miss but can be partially resisted.
Third, there's the refresh/adding of the stack. This can miss. Or at least it used to miss in TBC when I was investigating the relative merits of hit rating for paladin threat.

So the miss in the combat log is most likely a miss on the refresh of the stack.

Mordekhuul · 02/15/09, 3:44 PM

When tanking serious bosses (not adds or trash or gimmicky bosses) do many of you jewelcrafter tanks seriously gear around trinkets other than [Essence of Gossamer] and [Figurine - Monarch Crab]?

I've been using both for a long time now, and just can't see anything else that is worth configuring my gear around, given the amount of effective health those two trinkets pack (and the crab's 60s cooldown avoidance ability of course).

I'd love to be proven wrong on at least the gossamer, and replace at least one of my trinkets with something other than an iLevel 200 blue, perhaps even one with defense so I could quit flirting so dangerously with 540 (right now I have a 27 defense gem on my wrists to stay above 540, instead of the 41 stamina gem I used to have there).

The only real option I see is [Repelling Charge], which tankpoints and Rawr both tend to throw way below the Crab and Gossamer in terms of overall benefit. I'm not married to the analysis of Rawr or TP, as both are just tools with assumptions built in, but they are an objective measure and I tend to trust them unless common sense shows a reason not to.

Cathela · 02/15/09, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hythloday

SoV is applied from melee specials too, in particular Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous.

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that seals only procced on weapon-strike specials, i.e., HotR, CS, and DS.

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul

The only real option I see is [Repelling Charge], which tankpoints and Rawr both tend to throw way below the Crab and Gossamer in terms of overall benefit. I'm not married to the analysis of Rawr or TP, as both are just tools with assumptions built in, but they are an objective measure and I tend to trust them unless common sense shows a reason not to.

The 84 defense on Repelling Charge is worth 84 itemization points, whereas the 111 stamina on Gossamer is worth 74 itemization points. So, in theory if you have an infinite ability to move itemization points around elsewhere on your gear, Gossamer is better. (e.g., if you can switch Gossamer out for Repelling and then trade defense elsewhere for stamina to bring you back down to 540 defense. Obviously this also ignores the proc and on-use effects.)

Whether you can do this in practice depends a lot on what gear you have available.

• frmorrison · 02/15/09, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that seals only procced on weapon-strike specials, i.e., HotR, CS, and DS.

The 84 defense on Repelling Charge is worth 84 itemization points, whereas the 111 stamina on Gossamer is worth 74 itemization points.

You are correct, SotR cannot proc Seals since it is a ranged attack (just like Judgements, except for Command can proc from Judgement). Only our 3 melee strikes and autoattack can proc Seals atm (except for Command).

Since Charge has a better item budget, for overall mitigation Rawr for my character ranks those two trinkets (Charge + Gossmaer) as numbers 1 and 2 respectfully (Interesting, it has the Nobles Deck as number 3).

MetallicaRulez0 · 02/16/09, 2:12 AM

I don't see how Gossamer could be better than the Monarch Crab, since it has less Stamina (assuming you used a 24 and 41 stam gem in the Crab) and the proc is near worthless compared to the on-use ability of the Crab, which has saved my life many, many times.

Right now the 2 Trinkets I would use would be Crab and Repelling Charge, because the Charge would allow me to regem all of my 16 def gems to Stamina.

• frmorrison · 02/16/09, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by MetallicaRulez0

I don't see how Gossamer could be better than the Monarch Crab, since it has less Stamina (assuming you used a 24 and 41 stam gem in the Crab) and the proc is near worthless compared to the on-use ability of the Crab, which has saved my life many, many times.

Right now the 2 Trinkets I would use would be Crab and Repelling Charge, because the Charge would allow me to regem all of my 16 def gems to Stamina.

Assuming two 24 stamina gems, the Gossamer is about the same as the Crab. You cannot assume a JC will put one of the three "good" gems in the trinket. Also, it is hard to tell when a use effect has saved you, unless you have a mod (like the Tankadin2 with Argent Defender addon).

You can disagree with Rawr, it is just an imperfect tool that attempts to model tanking, but loads better than "feeling".

Prinsesa · 02/16/09, 5:43 AM

I agree with the Monarch being better than the Gossamer.

You shouldn't really use a Solid Dragon's Eye on a blue socket, but you can (should) use it on a yellow (or red) socket. Using it on the Monarch itself is of particular note since this is an item that isn't likely to be replaced until Ulduar.

That gives you 137 STA (63 base + 24 blue + 41 yellow + 6 bonus) if you do go through with the Dragon's Eye, or at least 108 STA (63 base + 24 blue + 12 yellow + 6 bonus) if you decide to use normal rare gems anyway.

The worst case scenario is only 3 STA less than the Gossamer, but the kicker is the fact that the Monarch's second ability is on-use, which significantly ups its usefulness over the Gossamer's random proc.

Ivriniel · 02/16/09, 7:03 AM

Personally I am using Monarch Crab + Strength version of Greatness and I am not aware of any trinkets that are similar in power. The Darkmoon Card averages out at around 160 Blockvalue (Assuming Kings and Eternal Earthsiege). Which is nice mitigation and a threat increase.
Maybe Gossamer is better for magic based bosses where blockvalue is of little value. (OT: How balanced would it be if HolyShield could block magic damage? It is a holy shield after all!)

Repelling Charge doesn't seem as good if you consider the many non blue sockets you have in gear, you can just socket them with blue stamina gems, but you're gonna lose a decent socket bonus in most cases. So in reality you wont gain any itempoints.
Reaching def cap by using green def/stam gems for all your yellow sockets or even straight yellow defense gems seems better with the current items. But maximising gains from enchants and gems is an other huge topic.

In the end it comes down to what you prefer, I see myself as a tank for bosses that do mostly melee damage (Patchwork) or require high TPS (Malygos) that's why I like Blockvalue and dislike stamina stacking. Take the right class for the right Job, which once content gets harder means us Paladins MT fast hitting melee bosses, and not casters/magic based bosses.
How many people use a Protection Paladin over a Deathknight to MT Sartharion3D?

Mordekhuul · 02/16/09, 11:39 AM

I may have spoken unclearly, but I certainly wasn't offering that Gossamer is better than the Crab. I use both, and would rank Crab over Monarch if I had to.

I was more speaking to using Gossamer as my second trinket at all, over other options. Someone above mentioned using Repelling because it lets them re-gem out of their 16 defense gems. I have a single defense gem (an epic JC one for 27 defense) in my gear to get over the cap. Swapping from gossamer to repelling would let me swap from a 27 defense gem to a 41 stamina gem, for a net loss of 70 or so stamina.

• frmorrison · 02/16/09, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul

Swapping from gossamer to repelling would let me swap from a 27 defense gem to a 41 stamina gem, for a net loss of 70 or so stamina.

Assuming you had a Repelling, you drop your def gem, def cloak enchant (getting 225 armor) and swap your Meta to the Stamina version. I don't know how good it is to compare 2% armor versus 5% block value though, but Repelling gives a lot of flexibility.

Cathela · 02/17/09, 9:47 AM

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

In the end it comes down to what you prefer, I see myself as a tank for bosses that do mostly melee damage (Patchwork) or require high TPS (Malygos) that's why I like Blockvalue and dislike stamina stacking. Take the right class for the right Job, which once content gets harder means us Paladins MT fast hitting melee bosses, and not casters/magic based bosses.
How many people use a Protection Paladin over a Deathknight to MT Sartharion3D?

I take your philosophy; I've focused on blockvalue.

It depends a lot on what other tanks you have available, or expect to have available. Our tanking corps has one other prot paladin besides me, two prot warriors, one tank-specced DK, and no ferals at the moment. All of these people are (IMO of course) very good tanks, so there's little reason for me to put a lot of effort into gearing up for a role that other people are naturally better suited for. So, I focus on blockvalue so that on the fights I am best suited for, I'm really really well suited. On fights where blockvalue-stacking would make me a horrible tank, we use someone else anyway. (Admittedly I also like seeing big ShR numbers. The other prot paladin takes a bit more of a well-rounded approach, and is a more survivable tank on most fights, but at the cost of being a little weaker in the paladin niche.) Our DK always does the MT duty for Sarth3; you just can't beat the DK's array of survival cooldowns for that role.

(Of course I pick up all the tanking gear I can as long as it seems remotely useful, juggle multiple gear loadouts in ItemRack, etc. The above is just in regard to what I prioritize on drops, and what I pass on in favor of other tanks.)

But, as I said, this is group-dependent. If you don't have as many different tanking classes available -- and this will always be the case in 10-man and smaller conten -- then it probably pays to take more of a generalist approach to gearing up. You may not have a DK in your group, but somebody has to tank Sarth, for example.

Margyn · 02/17/09, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Judgements (JoL, JoW, JoJ): Fairly low damage. The main point in judging a mob is generally not to build threat, but to keep up the JoL or JoW debuff for your group's benefit. Judgements are part of most standard rotations, but when non-standard threat abilities become available (e.g., Exorcism) Judgements are usually the first thing replaced. If other paladins in your group are keeping JoL and JoW up, you can feel free to ignore judging entirely if you like.

I read through the front end of this thread a while ago, and then got distracted and forgot to finish. It's quite late in the discussion to be asking this but hopefully not too late...

Since the healing proc on JoL attributes threat to the originator now, can someone with a good grasp of the mechanics explain to me how any other Judgement could produce more threat than Light or why you would want a Ret or Holy Pally using this on target? I'm referring to fights where there is constant raid damage like Sapphiron, Malygos or Sartharion for example, where the raid is always taking damage and it looks to me like it generates a ton of "passive" TPS.

It also seems useful for "free" initial threat gen on spawning adds, like on Noth, Tenebron or Sartharion; although most healers will quickly generate greater threat than the JoL can alone, it still draws a large percentage of adds into my Consecrate without have to actively target them... which leads me to also ask if there's a functional method of targeting since my tab tends to target anything but what I expect it to...

thedopefishlives · 02/17/09, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Margyn

I read through the front end of this thread a while ago, and then got distracted and forgot to finish. It's quite late in the discussion to be asking this but hopefully not too late...

Since the healing proc on JoL attributes threat to the originator now, can someone with a good grasp of the mechanics explain to me how any other Judgement could produce more threat than Light or why you would want a Ret or Holy Pally using this on target? I'm referring to fights where there is constant raid damage like Sapphiron, Malygos or Sartharion for example, where the raid is always taking damage and it looks to me like it generates a ton of "passive" TPS.

It also seems useful for "free" initial threat gen on spawning adds, like on Noth, Tenebron or Sartharion; although most healers will quickly generate greater threat than the JoL can alone, it still draws a large percentage of adds into my Consecrate without have to actively target them... which leads me to also ask if there's a functional method of targeting since my tab tends to target anything but what I expect it to...

They removed the threat generation from the JoL proc. I can't recall the location of the blue post where they stated why, but they said it was because they didn't want Ret/Holy aggro gen going through the roof from their stronger JoL procs and they didn't want other tanks' threat gen to be outclassed by prot paladins' because of it.

Margyn · 02/17/09, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

They removed the threat generation from the JoL proc. I can't recall the location of the blue post where they stated why, but they said it was because they didn't want Ret/Holy aggro gen going through the roof from their stronger JoL procs and they didn't want other tanks' threat gen to be outclassed by prot paladins' because of it.

Thanks, I hadn't paid too much attention in the last 2 weeks to JoL threat... at least I know I'm not crazy now.

Does anyone have a solution to the terrible targeting mechanics? I have a lot of frustration targeting mobs because the size of the mouse-over box of a mob near me makes it almost impossible to mouse target anything unless I'm zoomed out and swivel my view entirely to one side, and tab cycles very badly.

Tharia · 02/17/09, 12:04 PM

I almost exclusively target by clicking the bar over the heads (need to activate it first ofc). I got used to it for 4 years now and it works best in my opinion. takes a bit of aiming in crowded situations but at least you are not reliant on ridiculously small or big hit boxes.
Tab targetting has its uses but I try to avoid it, it's just too unreliable.

jeydax · 02/17/09, 2:14 PM

Regarding Monarch Crap, Repelling Charge and Gossamer discussion I have all 3 and prefer using the Crap+Charge combo, believe its the best from experience.

• frmorrison · 02/17/09, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by jeydax

the Crap+Charge combo, believe its the best from experience.

That is Crab

. Anyway I looked at Rawr again and it says that is the best combo (previously I had it deleted because I am not a JC).

The rankings I have:
Crab
Charge
Gossamer
Nobles Deck with Strength
The block trinket from VH