Keeping DP up requires ONE GCD, at the start of a fight. Guarded by the Light refreshes the duration of DP, not the cooldown. The only time it's going to drop is in between pulls (and it somehow takes an entire minute to get there), and even then you can zap random critters for it.

Oh, completely misunderstood by me then. I would probably be quicker to decide kings over sanct now if I have only 1 blessing to choose. But then again, cases with just 1 paladin are rarely challenging content.

Couple of things i'm interested in finding out as soon as anyone gets onto the PTR

1) BoK - Is the trainable spell or 2% or 10% version? Have they made this a flat 2% instead of the arguably overpowered 10% buff it was? In addition is the new improved MotW for druids equivalent to this Improved Mark of the Wild (Tier 1) now also increases all of your total attributes by 1/2%. ie will BoK be something no longer used in raids by palas

2) It appears we have had a single target threat nerf. Whilst Shield of Templar ability has been rolled into the abilities it appears (from undocumented changes on mmochampion) that the "high level of threat" from shield of righteousness has vanished meaning the tps from this ability has been cut.

3) BoSanc - Would like to know if the damage reduction from this still stacks with a priest's Grace. I know it currently does, so hopefully still will, otherwise becomes an odd talent to keep in. I'm surprised it's still there and hasn't been rolled into something else

4) Anyone heard anything about SA?

1. As far as I know, we're getting the 10% version. The only reason they split it into the 5-point 2% + Improved version in the first place was because they moved it to tier 1 Prot so that it wasn't an 11-point talent, but didn't like it as a 1-point talent either.

As well, the Imp. MOTW change, as I understand it, is for the Druid and the Druid only - this is a personal benefit to them for taking a raid buff talent.

2. THIS POST indicates that SHOR has never had any extra threat modifier - the tooltip was simply never updated after Beta.

3. This is unlikely, since Grace and BoSanc are both in the same buff category. That they stack now is likely unintended. On that note, I know for a fact that they stack as far as both buffs will show, but has anyone ever done empirical testing to see if the actual effects are stacking?

BoK is still 10% baseline on PTR atm.

If you have the normal BoS up, the 10 minute one, it gets overwritten by Grace (or at least it did at the end of November). This could have possibly changed.

I always assume BoSanc and Grace stacked. Does Vigilance also not stack with either of them?

Does anyone else find the relegation of BoS to being essentially a paladin-only blessing really clunky? It's gonna make life a pain in the ass in raids if I have to either gimp my stam or my mana regen for trash tanking because I'm the only tank that wants sanctuary. I'm hoping another PTR patch iteration will (hopefully) bring the new spiritual attunement which will fold the mana regen from block/dodge/parry in as baseline.

Some new protection glyphs found on Thottbot Test:

Glyph of Divine Plea - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
While Divine Plea is active, you take 3% reduced damage from all sources.

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous
Your Hammer of the Righteous hits 1 additional target.

And a very weird/situational one:
Glyph of Hand of Salvation - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
When you cast Hand of Salvation on yourself, it also reduces damage taken by 20%.
edit: this one is probably more of a pvp glyph actually.


Very happy with the DP/HotR glyphs though, probably going to remove my judgement and RD ones for these. (not quite sure about RD vs HotR).

Salv only reduces the new threat you generate, not your current threat. I'd think in a lot of cases you'll have a big enough threat lead that you won't mind taking the slight threat loss for the mini-shieldwall effect. (EDIT: The preceding is wrong. I'm an idiot. Salv reduces current threat.)

With the new GbtL, the DP glyph is a permanent 3% reduction to incoming damage as long as you're hitting something. I hate to be the one who always looks the gift horse in the mouth, but that seems like a big buff for something that was completely unannounced and unexpected.

The HotR glyph is, of course, pure sex.



Overall the changes seem designed to both give us more options and force more choices, both of which are good things. All three of the new major glyphs are useful in some way or another, the old RD and SoV glyphs are still very good, and the HoJ glyph (+5 yards range) is starting to look pretty sweet if you talent it up all the way for a 20 second cooldown. That's six glyphs with some kind of direct tanking utility, and good arguments to be made for all of them for at least certain kinds of content or roles. (HoJ glyph for heroics, HotR glyph for add-pickup situations, HoS glyph for fights where you need another cooldown, etc.)

Similarly for the talents, although it depends on whether that weird Reckoning->AD link goes live.

I wonder if the damage-limit on Divine Guardian is per-attack or a cumulative total. i.e., if you have, say 30k hp in a raid, does DG only last until you've sucked up 90k worth of damage?

Yes, there is one ShoR that doesn't get the benefit of the LoO. Can you further explain why that matters. The issue back 2 pages ago (I believe) was comparing a rotation where you follow judgement with a ShoR versus the 96969 rotation. The common issue with this argument is that people think that if you immediately follow judgement with a ShoR everytime that you magically get more damage, when in fact you don't. You get less. Are you arguing that you can get more damage by following every ShoR with an immediate judgement versus the standard 96969 rotation? If not, what exactly are you arguing?

The thing people need to realize is this. If you follow a Judgement with a ShoR immediately after everytime, you get some form of:

00.0 Judgement
01.5 ShoR
...
09.0 Judgement
10.5 ShoR
...
And so on.

Every 18 seconds you get exactly 2 judgements and 2 ShoR's total (both benefit from Libram of Obstruction


With the 96969 rotation you get 2 Judgements and 3 ShoR every 18 seconds, with 2 of those getting benefit from the Libram of Obstruction and one not. So with the 96969 rotation you get an additional ShoR that you didn't get with the other rotation. Sure it doesn't benefit from the LoO proc, but you definitely don't get less LoO affected ShoR's in a 96969. You get exactly the same number of affected ShoR's in both rotations (1 ShoR for every Judgement. Using the earlier rotation instead of the 96969 only decreases your threat/dps overall because you lose cooldowns.

So yes, you get one ShoR that doesn't have a LoO proc, but you get just as many ShoR's that do as if you had always did Judgement->ShoR->etc. with the 96969 rotation providing an additional ShoR proc (unaffected by LoO) and no loss of cooldowns and thus more dps.

None of them stack in the sense that you get benefit from more than one. If I have vigilance on me, I can no longer put BoSanc on me directly. It's really annoying when my warrior partner puts it on me in raids: "a more powerful spell is active".

Pretty sure this is wrong. If you cast salv on someone, you can see their TPS going negative in omen as well, and usually dropping several places on the agro list.

Really? The tooltip says "Places a Hand on the party or raid member, reducing their total threat by 2% every 1 sec. for 10 sec. Players may only have one Hand on them per Paladin at any one time.", which I'm having a hard time mangling into something that makes sense as a temporary threat gen reduction. Got a source?

If the reckoning->AD link is there i'm very curious to see what's happening with SA. The reason being, if perma-plea isn't necessary for mana reasons the question "is AD + 6% spell damage reduction worth risking that extra parry haste?", becomes highly interesting.

Cumulative total transferred is how I read it, so bear in mind that 90k absorbed means the raid has taken 300k raw in 12s, or 12.5k each, 33k in a 10-man (before someone gets finicky with my calculations, I've assumed damage to the paladin isn't counted).

I just wet myself as I saw the new glyphs :O
I normally didn't bother with Protection glyphs and just left my arena glpyhs in, but the DivPlea glyph is just awesome.
I'm not sure about the HoS Glyph though, 20% is not likely to safe you if you need it and 10% less threat could be too much on some encounters. On the other hand, HotR is only really useful for trash for this one is probably not going to be used in raids either.
Well, one awesome and two at least situationally useful glyphs. (SoV and Judgement were at least a bit useful, too, don't misunderstand me)
ShoR is pretty much useless or am I missing something? Maybe for leveling, but you only get ShoR on 75, so... :/
What is "1 to 6%" supposed to mean?

I, too, am really confused by this glyph. Assuming it's not in error, even in our current climate it'd be worthless. Add in a constant Divine Plea to make our near-zero mana issues zero and it's a simply perplexing glyph. Even though it would've been lame, I was hoping to have a dispel effect added in the same way as Shield Slam has.

The Divine Plea glyph is incredible. Lets hope it makes it to live.

Yes, you're right. I'm an idiot. Sorry about that.

Don't see why it wouldn't. Also makes the BoK vs BoSanc discussion moot since they most likely will not stack.

HoSalv is also going to keep atleast some sort of functionality for tanks as I am sure creative players will find good moments to use your mini-SW even if you lose ~6% (assuming 3 secs of HoSalv uptime) of your threat.

I think that it's more likely that they will stack, given the new Glyph of Shield Wall and the qualms about warrior/paladin survivability compared to DK/druid.

It would be pretty horrific if they don't stack, as that would render our mandatory blessing either half-useless on us, or half-useless on others. Pretty sure Blizzard can come up with a better design than that.

The one worrying thing in all of this is that the datamined Glyph of Dispersion duplicates the talent's new baseline effect - this suggests that some of these Glyphs may still be in the 'under consideration' phase.

In Soviet PTR, Paladins deathgrip you.

Honestly I doubt they will stack and you should be happy if they don't since then you can use BoK over BoSanc without any qualms. 3% magic/physical mitigation isn't even comparable to a 1 min Shield Wall (which I honestly don't see going live like this).

I'd expect them to stack, since plea is a self buff not a raid buff. Judgements of the Pure stacks with wrath of air totem, that's not much different.