Grace isn't a raid buff either and it doesn't stack with Vigilance (which also isn't a raid buff per se) so that logic really work here. Also the fact that it's 3% like Grace, BoSanc and Vigilance which already don't stack with each other leads me to believe that it will not stack.

I don't see much point in discussing whether it will or won't stack when it's entirely at the whim of the game designers and we'll know within 48 hours or so. That said, if it is the case that it stacks (which is the interesting case, in my opinion), it seems like the paladin niche further becomes lesser, but more reliable mitigation, with our on-demand mitigation activities carrying a heavy penalty (the Glyph of Hand of Salvation).

Judgements of the Just - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

I'm sorry if someone has already brought this up, but I just caught the second part of judgments of the just change.
Do you think there is any pve implications to having longer duration ministuns?

Purely pvp. The divine plea buff should give us our much needed mana for pvp though... but I'm disappointed playing with the new tree trying to get deeper into the tree, there isn't much choice.

the Glyph of Hand of Salvation sounds situationally useful - imagine being the Sarth tank in a 3 drake fight. It's really just you and the healers on the threat meter for a long time, so a Hand of Salv shouldn't hurt.

There are so many good choices for tanking glyphs now:
SoV - 10 exp (threat/mitigation)
Righteous Defense - 8% hit on the spell (reliable taunt)
Judgement - 10% more judge damage (threat)
Excosism - 20% more dmg (threat?)
HotR - 1 extra jump (aoe threat)
Divine Plea - perma 3% damage reduction (mitigation)
Hand of Salv - 20% dmg reduction on for 10 sec on 2 min cooldown, but lose 20% threat (mitigation)

I think I'll go for RD, Divine Plea if it stacks with other dmg reduction, and either SoV or HotR

The new glyph of salvation seems really nice for a Sartharion MT. Not usable on every fight, but it could be situationally quite handy. Add in the divine plea glyph and the extra healing talent and we've gained a lot of extra survivability in this patch.

The Reck --> AD link has to be someone's idea of a sick joke. When is the last time anyone still specced Reck voluntarily? That tier of the tree was already very sparse in the desirable talent category and instead of addressing that they made a talent no one wanted mandatory to progress further up the tree? Since SoV is the way to go for tanking and it now applies on every hit and rarely drops off, the extra threat of a few extra white hits every once in awhile is certainly not worth 5 talent points. Truly confusing choice,

The glyphs are awesome, but I'm still wondering when, if ever, we'll get some choices in the minor glyph category. Once you hit 80 and are blessing greater blessings most of the time, there's simply no choices for minors and a few flavour ones would be appreciated I think.

I saw no mention of this change on any of the notes, and I'm willing to bet it's a bug with the talent tree (on mmo). Does anyone else have a source other than the mmo tree of AD requiring reckoning?

Last time I tested it, the BoSanc mitigation stacked with Vigilance.

It got fixed is not stacking now, and if a warrior buff you vigilance first then you can buff yourself with BoS you can't bless you, you need to make the warrior steal 10% of your TPS after you get BoS up for mana regen.

It's been confirmed on the PTR that they are *not* linked:

Maintankadin :: View topic - 3.1 Patch notes

As usual, 3rd party talent trees can be a bit buggy with regard to PTR builds....I wouldn't trust them as a primary source for information, just a useful tool for playing around with info tha can actually be verified on the test realms.

Yeap, my mistake. That talent still needs a rewrite though. It really doesn't serve any purpose under current TPS mechanics.

No disagreement that it's the worst threat talent in our arsenal, at about 1.5% more TPS for 5 points. That said if you really need a max threat, or max DPS build, taking Reckoning instead of Kings is an excellent choice, as Kings *literally* does nothing and Reckoning is just very very small.

Well what about Totem of Wrath and Master Poisoner, they do not stack as well.

Just saw on WoWinsider, engineers are getting a hand mod that gives 800 armor. I am not a fan of enchanting armor on gear, but this seems like it would be best in slot for hand enchants.

Yes it would be best, so a nice boon for Engineers. Also, it sounds like a nice cloth user enchant for PvP reasons.

I like the cloak armor enchant (assuming you were 540 defense otherwise).

As long as we're not required to pick up Reckoning (which has been confirmed as a bug on the calculator and not currently IG) the prot stuff looks really nice. I'm looking at 5/54/12 next patch to get 5/5 SotP and PoJ which I can't do currently on live. And I still gain divinity, 20 seconds off HoJ CD, silence on AS, etc. Prot is looking really strong right now IMO.

I have been on the PTR, Reckoning is not required for anything, and I doubt it will ever change.

Prot will be doing better better, and Divinity is a neat Paladin-oriented talent that sounds very helpful to have.


I am looking forward to trying out Prot PvP once more people get on the PTR. I tried it once on live and keep running OOM.

The problem with Reckoning being a prereq for AD/etc is definitely a bug in the calculator, and hides another bug - currently, the mmo-champion calculator doesn't have the prereq chain for BoS/HS/AS/SotT (i was fiddling around with builds earlier, and found that i had an extra point from somewhere - turned out i'd forgotten to select Holy Shield...).

Looks like the whole prereq chain got shifted over to the next talents along accidentally somehow (probably something to do with the missing tier 1 talent throwing off an index somewhere, that's used to implement the prereqs).

I've sent an email to mmo-champion about it, hopefully they'll get a fix in soon (if not, i guess we'll just wait until they have to redo the tree whenever the currently-unimplemented talents hit the PTR...)

According to the enchant text it only works on plate gloves.

(also to clarify, it is an engineer-only enchant)

So, from the priest notes on the latest PTR patch, the 3% damage reduction on Grace is being removed, but they're adding an effect to Renewed Hope (another Disc talent) that reduces all damage taken by the raid by 3% for 20 seconds after the priest casts PW:S. Presumably this effect doesn't stack with BoSanct.

I can see why they're doing that, because right now BoSanct can give damage reduction to the entire raid that can't be duplicated by anything else. So that's fine, but when you put this change together with the removal of rage/RP regen, it relegates BoSanct back to the status of mostly just being a self-buff used by prot paladins. In a 10-man raid, there's going to be at least one blessing that's better than Sanct for everyone else (Kings on tanks), and in a 25-man raid you're very likely to have a Disc priest.

They're nerfing a lot of the unique utility from BoSanct, and I think that's mostly a good idea. (Unique buffs that come from only one spec of one class are a Bad Thing.) But what's left over after they've done that really doesn't qualify as important enough to be worth being a separate buff. So if they're going to go down this road, I think it would be better if they just did away with BoSanct. Move the mana regen to some other talent, and then replace the BoSanct talent with a talent that just attaches a 3% damage reduction to any of your blessings.

I think having a single specced blessing has always been a bad idea. Consolidation of blessings was a great change and BoSanc remains as an anomaly after this change. Hopefully it just goes away (as I think the DP change should take care of mana - a clip on youtube showed sustained 969 in an OT setting being sustainable with this new change) and is replaced by something new.