The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK) - Page 37

jere · 03/16/09, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by BFG

There's no discussion of taking the new +20% Exorcism glyph and speccing 0/53/18 for further +15%. I think on single target Exorcism will outperform anything except ShR even with 150% crits. But is it worth it to lose one of 3 glyphs? (which one then?) Breaking the 969 rotation probably isn't a big deal.

Take a look at this thread:
Maintankadin :: View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

If it hasn't been done here, then you can request that Theckhd do it really quick and he mostly likely will as he is able.

Cathela · 03/16/09, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by BFG

There's no discussion of taking the new +20% Exorcism glyph and speccing 0/53/18 for further +15%. I think on single target Exorcism will outperform anything except ShR even with 150% crits. But is it worth it to lose one of 3 glyphs? (which one then?) Breaking the 969 rotation probably isn't a big deal.

Exo has been critting for 200% damage since 3.0. Are they nerfing it to 150% in 3.1?

Dorvan · 03/16/09, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by BFG

There's no discussion of taking the new +20% Exorcism glyph and speccing 0/53/18 for further +15%. I think on single target Exorcism will outperform anything except ShR even with 150% crits. But is it worth it to lose one of 3 glyphs? (which one then?) Breaking the 969 rotation probably isn't a big deal.

Well, for one thing the Divine Plea glyph is pretty much mandatory for 3.1, so you've got 2 threat glyphs to work with. Breaking the 969 rotation (in the sense of switching to a FCFS priority system) is never worth it:

Maintankadin :: View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

With 2 DPS glyphs, you can only beat 969 if you substitute Ex for HS every other time (resulting in 56% holy Shield uptime) or substitute Exorcism for 9 second abilities whenever it's up, resulting in ~80% Holy Shield uptime. If you wnat 100% HS uptime, 969 is still best, with Judgment and SoV glyphs (or SoR if applicable)

Maintankadin :: View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

In general it's worth looking at all the posts linked from the first page of the thread.

Mordekhuul · 03/16/09, 4:27 PM

Have any of you tanked Sarth on non-heroic +3 kills? It is one of the two Glory of the Raider achievements left for us, and we are going tomorrow, but sans our usual feral tank (that we used for our heroic kill).

I understand things don't hit as hard in the 10 man version, but question whether my 42k buffed HP will cut it in a 10 man with no FR beyond totems/auras.

jere · 03/16/09, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Exo has been critting for 200% damage since 3.0. Are they nerfing it to 150% in 3.1?

Are you sure about that? I was pretty sure exorcism was doing 1.5x damage on crits currently.

Dorvan · 03/16/09, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by jere

Are you sure about that? I was pretty sure exorcism was doing 1.5x damage on crits currently.

I'm pretty sure it's 150% too....see the various fights in this WWS for example

Wow Web Stats

Cathela · 03/16/09, 7:02 PM

I could've sworn they changed it to 200% crits in WotLK, but I can't find a confirmation of that now.

That WWS seems to point in different directions for different fights. For 4H, it looks like Exo is critting for 200% damage, for Grobbulus it looks very close to 150% exactly.

Dorvan · 03/16/09, 7:35 PM

Any individual fight has a small sample size, which is why you should look across the whole data set rather than a single small sample like 4H. The overall parse clearly doesn't support the 2x conclusion (for example, there is only one fight where the average crit is double the average hit, and none where it's greater....a far cry from the 50-50 split you'd expect if there were 200% crits).

Exorcism is still a spell, and there's no documentation or evidence that I can find anywhere that it behaves any differently from the base mechanics of other spells.

Qalor · 03/16/09, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul

Have any of you tanked Sarth on non-heroic +3 kills? It is one of the two Glory of the Raider achievements left for us, and we are going tomorrow, but sans our usual feral tank (that we used for our heroic kill).

I understand things don't hit as hard in the 10 man version, but question whether my 42k buffed HP will cut it in a 10 man with no FR beyond totems/auras.

Not successfully. I tank our 25 man Sarth+3, but on 10 man, with only having a holy paladin to blessing of sac me, the dps weren't able to take drake #2 down in time. If we got lucky on breaths it could happen, or if we took another person who could give me a cooldown, but we decided to train our DK on doing it instead.

promdates · 03/16/09, 8:18 PM

Originally Posted by Qalor

Not successfully. I tank our 25 man Sarth+3, but on 10 man, with only having a holy paladin to blessing of sac me, the dps weren't able to take drake #2 down in time. If we got lucky on breaths it could happen, or if we took another person who could give me a cooldown, but we decided to train our DK on doing it instead.

The problem with having a paladin tank it over having a DK do it, is outside cooldowns. We only have 1, and it's on a 4 minute cooldown, while they have multiples and will very likely not need an outside one. This isn't saying that it is impossible for us to do it, just a lot harder, and forces you to build a group with enough outside cooldowns to keep the tank alive. Balance that along with bringing enough dps to be able to down the drakes fast enough that you don't use all of the cooldowns and get stuck eating a breath with drakes up and no cds.

Oh, and if you bring a melee dps group without a warrior tank (we used myself, blood dk on sarth, and feral on drakes), that you have either a rogue or warrior do sunder/expose. The damage was very noticable... well, for us at least.

path411 · 03/16/09, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by stabbymcgee

Oh, and if you bring a melee dps group without a warrior tank (we used myself, blood dk on sarth, and feral on drakes), that you have either a rogue or warrior do sunder/expose. The damage was very noticable... well, for us at least.

Yeah, sunders are ~20% damage increase for most melee classes, the first time my guild did 10man with a melee group, we used a druid tank on sarth, and a dk tank on drakes + adds. I went on my rogue however and kept up expose armor, and could definitely tell the difference in dps if expose fell off for any significant amount of time.

• frmorrison · 03/17/09, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

I could've sworn they changed it to 200% crits in WotLK, but I can't find a confirmation of that now.

Only dk spells crit at 2x baseline, and enhance can spec 2x spell crit.

Cathela · 03/17/09, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dorvan

Any individual fight has a small sample size, which is why you should look across the whole data set rather than a single small sample like 4H. The overall parse clearly doesn't support the 2x conclusion (for example, there is only one fight where the average crit is double the average hit, and none where it's greater....a far cry from the 50-50 split you'd expect if there were 200% crits).

Exorcism is still a spell, and there's no documentation or evidence that I can find anywhere that it behaves any differently from the base mechanics of other spells.

Well, the overall parse includes fights with big damage multipliers like Thaddius. The two fights I cited both have 3+ crits and I think 5 non-crits, and the damage range on Exo isn't big enough to make 150% look like 200% or vice versa.

In any event, since I can't find any source attesting to Exo critting for 200%, I think it must still be 150%. But I still don't get some of the numbers in that parse. (Are there any buffs/debuffs that increase crit damage? I'm not aware of any outside of talents, and we don't have any of those.)

[e]: Anyway, the whole point of my question was to set up this:

Damage in Cathela's current tanking gear (unbuffed):

Ability	Damage
Exorcism	~1600
Exorcism w/glyph+talent	~2200
Exo w/glyph+talent @ 30% crit rate	~2550
Exo w/glyph+talent @ 100% crit rate	~3300
JoV (full stack)	~800
JoV including added ShR damage from libram	~1400
JoV+libram effect 30% crit rate	~1800
Consecration (full duration)	~2000

30% seems to me like a realistic raid-buffed crit rate for someone with a Sanct.Battle tanking spec. That's 4% base + 6% Combat Expertise + 5% Convction + 3% Sanctified Battle + 3% Heart of the Crusader + 5% Leader of the Pack + ~4% from other sources (agi from SoE totem, etc.).

So, from a purely threat-based perspective, it looks like the best way to use Exo is as a replacement for Judgement every 18 seconds. That will still keep your judgement up, provided it doesn't miss (which makes hit-capping a good idea if you're going to do this IMO) and gain you 750 holy damage every 18 seconds on average, or around 75tps; or twice that much against an undead/demon target. The advantage will be significantly better if you ever find a good reason not to use the Libram of Obstruction.

Other advantage are the greater range compared to judgements or Consecration, the frontloading of damage compared to Cons, and the cheaper mana cost compared to Cons (should it ever come to that).

Ranjurm · 03/17/09, 1:45 PM

Combat expertise only affects melee attacks. It isn't clear from the tooltip. Also Leader of the pack only affects ranged/melee attacks and crit from agility only affects melee/ranged attacks.

Moonkin aura/elemental oath + intellect from raid buffs will increase Exorcism's crit rate.

Wrathblood · 03/17/09, 1:58 PM

Cathela,

Have you seen Theckh's extremely comprehensive modeling on max tps/dps rotations on maintankadin? He found that LoO makes it so that skipping judgments is basically never worth it (because of ShoR). His suggestion (purely for maxing tps/dps) is to replace HS with Exorcism every other time, unless the boss has a really fast swing speed, in which case I think you'd sub it for Consecration.

jere · 03/17/09, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

In any event, since I can't find any source attesting to Exo critting for 200%, I think it must still be 150%. But I still don't get some of the numbers in that parse. (Are there any buffs/debuffs that increase crit damage? I'm not aware of any outside of talents, and we don't have any of those.)

Perhaps buffs that aren't completely permanent (like Avenging Wrath, for example, or trinkets) were up at the times the crit happened and not when the hits happened. Could be number of things up and down during a fight.

Ivriniel · 03/18/09, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by Wrathblood

Cathela,

Have you seen Theckh's extremely comprehensive modeling on max tps/dps rotations on maintankadin? He found that LoO makes it so that skipping judgments is basically never worth it (because of ShoR). His suggestion (purely for maxing tps/dps) is to replace HS with Exorcism every other time, unless the boss has a really fast swing speed, in which case I think you'd sub it for Consecration.

Dropping Judgment seems like a pretty silly idea with Judgment of the Just and JoL/JoW for the raid in general.

I think the change to Exorcism is mainly aimed at retribution (which has free gcd's) anyway. I am pretty sure blizzard is aware of us being "gcd locked" with our rotation. For us it only really competes with Consecration and looking at the numbers this will depend on our raidbuffed spellcrit rates (which are rather low).

Nisall · 03/18/09, 7:34 AM

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Dropping Judgment seems like a pretty silly idea with Judgment of the Just and JoL/JoW for the raid in general..

Your argument is faulty as judgement lasts for 20sec so you can easy miss replace every other judgement and still keep JotJ and JoW/JoL up. However due to the libram you don't want drop judgement anyway (see Warthblood's post above).

jere · 03/18/09, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by Nisall

Your argument is faulty as judgement lasts for 20sec so you can easy miss replace every other judgement and still keep JotJ and JoW/JoL up. However due to the libram you don't want drop judgement anyway (see Warthblood's post above).

As a note, if you aren't hit capped, then skipping a judgement might still be risky, regardless of the debuff durations.

Mordekhuul · 03/18/09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wrathblood

Cathela,

Have you seen Theckh's extremely comprehensive modeling on max tps/dps rotations on maintankadin? He found that LoO makes it so that skipping judgments is basically never worth it (because of ShoR). His suggestion (purely for maxing tps/dps) is to replace HS with Exorcism every other time, unless the boss has a really fast swing speed, in which case I think you'd sub it for Consecration.

Look at his graphs again. If you aren't on a boss where you are happy to be hit more often (happy to have much lower HS uptime), I probably wouldn't fit exorcism in at all, and definitely wouldn't gain anything by sub'ing it for consecration.

Cathela · 03/18/09, 2:19 PM

I looked at Theckh's math. Good stuff. My numbers roughly agree with him on what you get for replacing judgement with Exo, but his plots put them in better context (showing it's a very small relative improvement.)

As for skipping every other HS to Exorcise, you don't always have to have 100% Holy Shield uptime. Warriors tank all the time without filling the hit table. Being able to fill the hit table consistently is our strength as tanks, but if you've got a boss where threat is a much bigger issue than survival, it can work.

Also, this is another place where it would be really nice if Holy Shield had a longer duration, like 30 seconds or so, with the same 8-second cooldown and same 8 charges -- just to give you the option to skip it occasionally if you have the charges to spare.

Dippyskoodlez · 03/18/09, 10:52 PM

Paladin T8 Protection Relic -- Increases your block rating by 136 while Holy Shield is active.

Yeah, Blizzard is dumb. The only way I could see this being even remotely useful is... err.. wait...... its not. It's being added to a tier of raiding where we are already unhittable. Nice! Would have made sense if they had it for badges and dropped the 352 Bv libram in ulduar.

# Paladin T8 Protection 2P Bonus -- Increases the damage done by your Seals by 10%.
# Paladin T8 Protection 4P Bonus -- Shield of Righteousness now increases your shield block value by 225 for 3 sec.

2pc- Hmm. Ok, I guess...Will be a nice mix with 2pc T7 and 2pc T8 atleast.
4pc- What a wonderful way to mitigate next to no damage, *assuming* you are hit within 3 seconds of that Shor. While warriors get the 20% magic damage reduction with shield block up?

What about the spot of Spiritual attunement? Tier 7? Why do we have to spend 2 talent points for a pretty shoddy mana return? Normal OS tanking, I'm always Oom. Would be nice if they atleast buffed it to like 20% or something. It shouldn't have to stay gimped since its that far in the tree now.

EDIT: They added T8 stats.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ladin_tank.jpg

Wow, 40 block rating on our helm? 34 block rating on our shoulders?

Atleast we got the white set with the kilt, and the gloves are the only good piece in the set.....

Prinsesa · 03/18/09, 11:52 PM

Ghostcrawler just made THIS POST, indicating that the devs are discussing limiting Divine Plea's to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock.

If its changed like so, this should come as a relief to anyone worried about having our panic buttons cut in half.

EDIT: As well, the Tier 8 preview pictures seem to indicate that our model is going to be white, with a skirt!

jere · 03/18/09, 11:57 PM

It looks like they fixed the AP coefficient for Holy Shield in this build finally.

Maelstrom · 03/19/09, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

Atleast we got the white set with the kilt, and the gloves are the only good piece in the set.....

Talking in bold doesn't make your point any more valid. The chest is well itemised, as are the legs. I'd probably take the headpiece since it has a decent amount of dodge on it. Overall I'd hardly say the set is bad, and it has a lot of strength on it (More than on the Warrior and DK sets) which is still our most powerful threat stat.

The libram however is total garbage, and I've already made a feedback post on the EU forums about it because it's so shockingly useless.