Does anyone else feel that having 3 talents in one tree dedicated to mana regeneration is:
a) Overkill
b) Bloat
c) Poor Design
d) All of the above.

The combination of SA+BoS will keep us topped off on 99% of boss fights, the divine plea change is more for the glyphed 3% less damage and trash (and overgearing instances which BoS was supposed to fix, but just makes us pull a lot more mobs to stay topped off.)

Overkill? Not really, functionally it is staying the same, and we will probably get more regen and better regen while clearing trash (honestly, the part of an instance that takes the most time.) Bloat? Maybe, but remember that one is a 3% less damage buff, the other can be glyphed for 3% less damage, and the other can be modular (SA1/2). Poor design? What would you prefer, add another ability to our tree that requires us to do more than we already do with such a constrictive rotation? They said they didn't want ret and holy to get SA, which is 100% understandable. Yet, prot relies on it to tank, hence why it gets put deep into our tree.

One issue that I was mulling over is that with the removal of SA, holy and ret can no longer tank (Especially holy). I've already put this in a feedback ticket on the PTR, suggesting that the effect of dodge/parry/block mana return be made a baseline passive ability so that holy and ret can tank 5mans whilst leveling and such.

SA should remain a deep prot skill so that holy and ret don't have to be balanced around it, and then BoSanct could be replaced with another talent, perhaps spell mitigation since we essentially have only a 2 minute CD (i. 3.1) to deal with that. Regardless of whatever BoSanct would be replaced with, I think this design is the most elegant. Since ret and holy have almost zero melee avoidance it couldn't be exploited, and SA remains a deep prot "perk" for less downtime and more comfortable mana for threat cycles.

Hey. Iam usually not tanking so I am not up to date which glyphs to use as protection.

I am going to tank 10man Sartharion3D´s adds and the Glyphs i had in mind are judgement, Avengers shield and seal of vengeance. Is there a better combination?

Keep in mind i need maximum threat for 1 target bosses(sartharion drakes, tenebron,shadron,vesperon ).

I dont need a general tanking build but only for this fight.

For talents i am a bit unsure. Would this be a valid build?

World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

Or do i need "seals of the pure"? Does that talent give more threat than for example "touched by the light" in protection?

Sorry if all of this can be found but i didn't manage to find it by searching this thread.

General tips would also be good. I have done the fight many times but this time i want to max out the threat i can do on 1 targets.

I wouldn't hold your breath for such changes. If the changes to SA result in extinction to holy/ret tanking while leveling; I suspect Blizzard is just fine with that. Blizzard has the new 'dual spec' card they will pull at any opportunity to crush any 'my spec just isn't viable anymore' discussions.

You would do better going with this spec, grabbing the Judgment, Seal of Vengeance, and Righteous Defense glyphs. The 4 points in Reckoning aren't required, but depending on the number of paladins in your raid, you should put those points into Kings, and remove a point from Heart of the Crusader.

As far as tank builds go, there is no "threat" and "mitigation" builds for paladins, just required talents for tanking, and then filler talents. Some people pick up Divine Guardian, others take Kings. The build I linked was the one that I used for 10 man 3 drakes. It also depends on what tanking job you do.

Something the previous poster forgot to point out: you never want more than 1 point in imp judgements. The second point is completely wasted if you keep a good rotation.

RD glyph helps if you manage to loose agro at the start of a drake and your HoR misses.

You really don't need PoJ. The waves move slow enough to avoid if you position properly. Just pay attention to where the walls go, and you can stand on the edge of either wall. If you're moving too much to avoid walls and reposition drakes, your dps will drop on the drakes (assuming you're going with a melee setup on that, not caster.)



Forgive my terrible paint skills. Red is the flame walls, Green is the drake landing locations and Sartharion, and blue is the drake/Sarth tank positions for flame walls. As you see, there's 2 possible safe zones for the waves. When Tenebron first lands, if the waves come from one side of the room you stand right next to the lava and you don't get hit. If it comes from the other side, you move into the safe area. Repeat for other drakes. If you have never done the fight before, it may take you a few tries to get used to the positioning and quickly adjusting to the wave locations if they change every time. Sometimes you will get lucky and have the same wave location repeated a few times.

Thanks for the picture but i also wrote that i have done it many times

I just wanted to check if there was some way of upping my threat so the casters dont have to hold back. There is nothing wrong with my positioning or anything like that

Nice paint skills tho!

They really shouldn't have to hold back at all. If they're holding back, chances are they either out gear you, or you're doing something wrong. Personally, whenever Tenebron lands, I use Avenging Wrath and continue my normal rotation. When Shadron lands, Tenebron is still up for another 10-15 seconds which is enough time to keep the rotation going between the two of them. Same for Vesperon.

Mana regeneration has never been the problem with the Protection tree, BoS is. It has always been a problem buff since at least BC and while thematic has always been out preformed by BoK. The fact that they have tacked more and more onto the buff to make it more desirable has only made it more obvious how much Kings trumps it. The real issue as I see it is design now has two buffs to balance Protection around; one that offers a 10% increase to all stats or 3% mitigation. Now which will Blizzard assume we use? Will that make our health have 10% more stamina then other tanks to make up for the lack of Kings? Will we have 3% more mitigation? In many ways they have answered the question by providing Disc priests the 3% mitigation and making Kings Baseline, they expect us to have both. Now in a 25 man the chance that there is either only one paladin and no Disc priests is fairly low so this shouldn't be a problem. In 10's you could see some issues as the other tanks start to pull away in either "rage" or mitigation and even then it is most likely for players who under gear the raid.

All that said I really wish BoS was removed from the equation for elegance sake and so we could perhaps be given another toy for those Oh #$%* moments or a movement buff that didn't require 12 points in the Ret tree. Do I expect or need these things, no but there is always hope for 3.2.

Hi Again!

Lately we are trying S+3D and I am involved with adds tanking duty. I am wondering if there is an addon where I can see which mob is not targeting me, or any tanks, if it can use ora2 tank list. That could help greatly to found those escaping from aoe. I am tryin to see name plates that goind away, but it is quite messy there, lot of things to do and lot of spell effect around. I am not sure if some of that addon could help greatly, but wondering if you know any of them.

What I switched to when I had the same "issue" was grid along with clique. I set up clique so my left click uses Righteous Defense and I removed most things grid does normally(showing dispellable stuff fx) and made it show Aggro alert on Bottom left/right and top left/right(I think it was, not at home atm) so when someone has aggro grid lights up and I can just left click the person. There are sometimes a few issues with this, mainly with mirror images and pets having aggro(often shows the owner having aggro causing you to waste RD). Note also that if you're gonna HoP/HoSalv someone you will need to shift click that person(not nice trying to target Sarth tank to HoSac... :P).

Evl_nameplates is a very simple mod that replaces the standard nameplates and highlights the ones that are aggro'd to you. You won't be able to tell which mobs are on which other tanks, but you can tell which ones are and are not on you.

I believe Aloft is another, heftier option for this kind of nameplate filtering.

I also recommend having Grid be fairly prominent with the aggro warning indicator enabled. Make dead sure that you ignore any aggro warnings on the tanks (have them all put in group 1 and healers put in groups 4/5 or the like so you can tell at a glance which healers have some aggro and avoid accidentally aoe taunting a tank (yes, I've done it, a couple of times, when learning +3).

More than that, as has been recommended earlier, set up a macro to cast RD on the highest aggro healer (should be a paladin running RF) and just punch it whenever you have no one else to taunt from and it is off cooldown.

I agree with the above poster about the use of grid in combination of an aggro monitor to taunt whelps off healers. An alternative that I personally use is the aggro indicator built into X-perl's raidframes. In Sarth 3D, you'll quickly realize after a pull or two who the whelps are going to go straight for (if not the RFed paladin, then the resto druid in my experience). Once you do that, I suggest you have your high-threat healer stand far enough away from the whelp spawn point in a spot that is both convenient for healing and allows you to place a consecrate down that gives enough of a buffer for a tick to go off. Note that placement of your consecration can be tricky and takes a good deal of practice vis-a-vis timing and placement. And ill-timed waves can make it even trickier to time.

Another tool I use to identify mobs that aren't targeting me is a mod called SimpleMouseoverTarget. Similar to the old AFTTE Tooltip mod, it adds a second frame next to your tooltip frame that shows the current mouseover's target and has an option to color it depending on what type of unit it is targeting. I use this in conjunction with TipTac so that the Tooltip is anchored to my mouse with the attached mouseover frame provided by SimpleMouseoverTarget.


While I'm posting here, I thought I'd solicit responses regarding something that's been nagging at me since the 3.1 patchnotes came out. Is anyone besides myself very tempted to use the new Hand of Salvation glyph, which is obviously meant for pvp, as another shield wall cooldown for tanking? Obviously not something to be used every cooldown, I could nevertheless see myself using it in numerous situations where I have either a sufficient threat lead or my tank target isn't being focused on during that part of the fight, ex. Sarth during Sarth +x.

I definitely see it as a gimmick Shield wall for those fights where your just holding your target while you wait for the raid to burn down other things. From my standpoint it seems that it can be useful on a couple of the Hard modes out there, Iron council immediately comes to mind, but little else when your directly tanking. On the other hand it is another nice buff for when your using damage redirecting abilities, such as Hand of Sacrifice and Divine Sacrifice. Much like these abilities uses, I don't see it as a main spec glyph, but with the inclusion of the Hard Modes and Duel spec, variant tanking specs for particular fights become much more palatable for the average player.

There is a discussion going on on the MMO-Champion forums about Sanc v. Kings. Just simple question BoK or BoSanc


I'm inclined to agree with the idea that Kings is better, but it seems like there is a lot going on in favor of Sanc. Which is it?

Kings increases your damage-soaking capacity by roughly 8%, compared to 3% for Sanct. If you're tanking anything where survivability is a concern, you won't be worried about mana, and hence Kings will be better. Sanct only becomes superior if you're running into mana issues, which by definition pretty much means that you're tanking something that doesn't hit very hard.

Of course, we really shouldn't be having to make this choice in the first place. As of 3.1, no other tank is dependent on BoSanct for their power regen, which means that in a raid with a disc priest, it's the prot paladin and only the prot paladin who needs BoSanct. That's going to cause all kinds of headaches for raids, and once 3.1 goes live, people are going to bitch up a storm about it (and rightly so). The devs can either fix it now or fix it three months from now.

This is in addition to the fact that Disc priests can now provide the same 3% damage reduction as BoSanct without needing to spend time and reagents on an additional buff, and without hampering their ability to provide standard priest buffs to the raid.

The fix, as discussed a few pages ago, would be to replace the BoSanct talent with a one-point "Sanctuary" talent that reduces damage taken by 3% for anyone affected by the paladin's blessings, and then move the mana-regeneration effect of BoSanct into some other talent--as was done for the rage and RP regen effects for the other tanking classes, to remove their dependence on BoSanct.

(A close second-best solution would be to limit the Sanctuary effect to BoK only.)

Or to eliminate SA as a talent as it now stands, put it in BoSanc's place and make it work as a passive ability (like SA), with BoSanc's mechanics (mana returned on dodge/parry/block - possibly on healing received as well depending on where we stand with respect to sustainability) all for a single point. Tie it into RF being up if you're worried about the repercussions in Arenas.

Dual specs don't become available until level 80, so that really does nothing to address holy/ret tanking issues. It looks like the JotW buff (from 15% base mana to 25%) is intended to answer the question for ret; I'm not sure what they intend for holy, or indeed if they even thing anything needs to be done.

Or they could move Holy Shield down to 21 points (where it was at the original WoW release) and move Sanct+SA up to 31.

Isn't the intention to make dual specs available at level 40?

Dual spec@40; they also said they wouldn't balance raids around people having it, although it may come to that point for hard modes.