Judgement is the best to drop, and making SotR rank 1 and SotR rank 2 the 6s in a 969696 makes the most sense. (Swapping HotR into Judgement's place when you don't need Judgement for the buff.)
Remember whilst Judgement damage is less than hammer damage, a lot of paladins will have Libram of Obstruction which as well as beniffiting defensively from using judgement on cooldown, after multipliers etc adds about 600 damage to both ranks of SotR which can be weaved into a rotation to ensure they both benefit. I would thus be tempted to drop Hammer/Consecration instead.
I didn't see it listed here so I need to ask, does anyone's rotation have Sacred Shield in it?
Sacred Shield
Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage and increasing the paladin's chance to critically hit with Flash of Light by 50% for up to 6 sec. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 sec. Lasts 30 sec.
Is that damage mitigation enough to even matter in a tanking rotation, and where would it fall in a 969 rotation?
SS gets 75% of your spell power added to the 500 damage shield, so it is useful (unless you are Ret, it is only 500). Note the damage shield on means less SA mana regen.
With talents ret pallys actually have 30% of their ap converted to spell power giving them a better shield than a prot pally. I think why this is largely ignored in a rotation is that the shield is much better when provided by a holy paladin. At 12% of base mana cost it is more expensive than a flash heal but still not a significant use of mana every 30 seconds.
I just found that Rank 1 and Rank 2 Shield of Righteousness are on separate cooldowns. Has this bug been noticed before?
Who says it is a bug? How else am I supposed to continue to top the damage meters while tanking? Seriously though, I'm sure it was unintended, but I've been using it since I dinged 80 and it will be sad to see it go away. The damage from a judgement with the BV libram followed 2 Shield of Righteousness is insane. Soloing has been godly. Normal mobs don't live through a single rotation. Unleashing all of that damage in the 6 second hammer of justice stun in PvP makes me feel viable as Prot.
It really isn't much different from the early beta shield of the righteousness that has 200% BV except that is burns two global cooldowns, and reduces the burst in PvP. I thought for a bit that perhaps it was intended, and there is still a chance that it is. When using it regularly I do have to drop things from my tanking rotation, and on boss fights that is usually consecrate. In any case it has been a nice buff to damage/threat while I wait for AW to be decoupled from DP so I can use it again.
There's no way that having the ShoR ranks on seperate CD's is intended. That would make it unique in being the only ability that could be used in that fashion, of any class, in the game (unless I'm forgetting something significant, which I don't think I am).
In other news, how has everyone been gemming? With the diminishing returns on avoidance I have been generally shying away from straight avoidance gemming. I gemmed Defense until I hit the cap, and I've been focusing on Stamina since then (or Def/Stam for a yellow gem slot, and Dodge/Stam for a red gem slot unless the socket bonus is trash, then just straight Stamina). I'm kind of going back to the early Kara mindset of Stamina > all until my avoidance from gear gets high enough that avoidance gearing is a prudent strategy, which may never happen due to the diminishing returns.
My experience in 10man raiding is that after the defense cap, socket bonus if its worthwhile for stamina avoidance, or straight stamina. Avoidance seems to be covered to a fair extent via the gear, and compared to other tanks, we are somewhat lacking stamina.
(disclaimer: I'm a BE pally comparing to Tauren Warriors and Tauren Deathknights, and Tauren Druids.)
On the other side of the line is the fact that I'm surrounded by 2 priests in my 10man, who have guardian spirit, which is clearly more effective if you have more HP, as well as the more HP you have the more hp your "Low HP = increased heals" triggers at, and also provides more opportunity for the priest talent which improves heals when target is below half hp.
Your situation and feelings of inadequacy may differ.
One may as well gem for strength over dodge in red sockets for the time being, once the defense and block caps are reached. Nothing in the game poses much of a challenge for a tank in full heroic gear, provided your healers are similarly equipped.
On the other side of the line is the fact that I'm surrounded by 2 priests in my 10man, who have guardian spirit, which is clearly more effective if you have more HP, as well as the more HP you have the more hp your "Low HP = increased heals" triggers at, and also provides more opportunity for the priest talent which improves heals when target is below half hp.
Don't forget that gemming for max stamina is great because of Ardent Defender too.
People may say it's leapfroggable but I personally think it's an amazing talent everytime you're not dealing with bosses that deal 15k+ damage per swing.
Pre 3.0, Righteous Fury increased threat from Holy spells by 90%
Post 3.0, Righteous Fury increases threat from Holy spells by 272%
How did we arrive at the 272% number?
First, consider a Ret Paladin without Fanaticism's threat reduction. He causes 1 threat per point of damage dealt.
Blessing of Salvation reduces all threat caused by 30%. The same Ret Paladin, when blessed with Salv, causes 0.7 threat per point of damage dealt. If you take the difference between an un-Salved Ret Paladin and a Salved Ret Paladin, the un-Salved Ret Paladin deals 43% more threat (basically, 1.0 / 0.7 = 1.43)
With the removal of Salv, Blizzard took this 43% threat difference and applied to all tanking "modes". Arriving at 272% more threat from Righteous Fury is basically 1.9 * 1.43 = 2.717
Small correction: RF increases the threat by 172%, or to 272% of the base threat for holy attacks, as compared to by 90%, or to 190% of the base threat before.
The calculation is (1+90%)*(1+43%) = 1.9*1.43 = 2.717 = 1+171.7%
Stam pulls a lot of different duties for protection as it gives you SP, increases your Ardent Defender range, and it is the best way for increasing your Effective Health.
Red Sockets: +8 Str/+12 Stam (Sovereign Twilight Opal) or +8 Agi/+12 Stam (Shifting Twilight Opal)
This one is kind of a tossup whether you want to gear more for block or for dodge. I think block is a more important stat to gear for as paladins have near 100% uptime of Holy Shield and Str increases our DPS as well. Agility is more important for avoidance and it does give armor and melee crit rating, but it suffers from diminishing returns and doesnt scale as compared to strength in terms of damage mitigation.
As I've confessed my love for block, Defense seems to be the most valuable of the green hybrid gems. Hit works too if you are missing mobs on the pickup, but the Naxx gear seems to have enough hit on it.
If you have a cruddy gem set bonus, just throw Solid Sapphires gems in there.
Also, thanks for mentioning the SoR bug, I was getting cursed by our bear RL last night for pulling mobs off him =D
There's also the Parry/Def gem for reds if you're cutting it close on the cap, which can be replaced with Str/Def or Dodge/Def cuts once Blizzard gets around to putting the recipe drops in game.
As a matter of opinion, which trinkets are everyone aiming for? I'm currently using the JC trinket with double solid dragon's eyes in it, along with [Essence of Gossamer], but seeing how lackluster the proc can be (2% proc rate, or that's how it feels at least), I'm debating picking up the badge trinket for fights where straight up taking the hits isn't such a wise idea. I'm hesitating over it though, since dodge is already my highest avoidance/mitigation stat due to the lack of SBR on heroic/rep/badge items, and I'm worried about running into severe DR issues too early into the game. I've tried reading the combat ratings thread to try and get a grasp for the "time to worry" point regarding DR on dodge and parry, but I'll admit that the math was over my head; Anyone want to take pity on the mathematically challenged and give me a hint on when avoidance DR becomes something I really need to keep in mind?
With talents ret pallys actually have 30% of their ap converted to spell power giving them a better shield than a prot pally. I think why this is largely ignored in a rotation is that the shield is much better when provided by a holy paladin. At 12% of base mana cost it is more expensive than a flash heal but still not a significant use of mana every 30 seconds.
The Ret talent that gives SP, Sheath of Light does not affect Sacred Shield (this is likely intended for PvP balance). However, normal Spell power and Prot's SP affects the shield.
You are right that if a Holy Pally is around only he should cast the Shield since his is the most powerful.
Sovereign Twilight Opal does not currently exist in game, so I would advise against attempting to socket it. *grin* Actually I'm just lusting after that gem so much I can taste it.
I'm very much with you on Solid Sky for blues. Red I've actually socketed a few pure Str because I'm finding SBV and stamina stacking to be one of the most effective ways to handle incoming damage for us. Enduring works well for yellow/blue, though I'm really feeling hit once I get to the point where defense is no longer a big deal- I like the steadiness of unresistable taunts and the idea of unavoidable ShoRs.
I'm also liking the 21 stam/5% SBV meta as well. 32 stam/2% AC might be a better alternative once defense gets a bit easier.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
I do believe the dodge/stam gem is currently implemented. I have not, however, found one and am urging my guild JCs to pick up the pattern soon so that I can socket them in my red slots instead of pure Strength. When trying to maximize your HP, gems without any health on them at all quickly lose out.
That said, I did not know about the ShoR bug and will definitely be using it to the best of my ability until they fix it. I'm used to the ShoR/HotR 6s in the 96969 rotation, though, so it won't be too hard to go back to it when they do fix it.
There is no Agi/stam Twilight Opal either. At least not on the JC vendor and not in heroix, might be a very rare world drop, but rumors state that some gems were simply not implemented (yet).
the only real option for red sockets is dodge/stam (or parry/def when not critcapped). There is an expertise/stam gem which might be interesting for other tanks but not really for paladins.
I'm making quite a lot of money from tank gems, kind of a niche, most JCs take melee or caster gems first.
Re: Gems
Stam pulls a lot of different duties for protection as it gives you SP, increases your Ardent Defender range, and it is the best way for increasing your Effective Health.
I forgot the spellpower! Thats a really good point.
This one is kind of a tossup whether you want to gear more for block or for dodge. I think block is a more important stat to gear for as paladins
I've been going for block value where i can, obvious synergies apply.
I wanted to perhaps bring up the point that perhaps we shouldnt be talking about "threat" and "threat per second". Rather these seem to be non-issues, and decision making always will end up in the "lets go with the damage reduction". But instead, I've found that tank DPS makes up a significant and important proportion of total raid DPS. In which case, it may be important to still be gearing for DPS in situations. Obviously most people will do this naturally with trying to stack things like block value (especially while the two ranks shield of righteousness are unlinked), which will contribute directly to DPS and damage mitigation all at once. Specifically, if you consider TPS alone, and therefore discard it entirely, you may come to conclusions that suggest "parry" or "dodge" may be better value, but with the consideration of DPS also, you may consider block value just a little more important.
Of course, that only possibly applies very situationally.
Assuming level 80 in all cases. Note that in item design, all primary stats and ratings "cost" the same amount per point, with the exception of stamina which costs 2/3 as much per point as the other stats and ratings (or equivalently, 1.5 stamina costs the same as 1.0 of any other primary stat or combat rating.) Note also that primary stats are affected by talents and by Blessing of Kings, while combat ratings are not.
2 strength = 1 block value before talents, 1.3 block value with the Redoubt talent
The Divine Strength talent increases total strength by 15%.
[*]Agility (agi)
52.08 agility = +1% dodge chance. While this is a nice effect, Dodge Rating is a more efficient way to increase your dodge chance.
52.08 agility = +1% melee crit chance.
1 agility = 2 armor.
[*]Stamina (sta)
1 stamina = +10 total health (hp).
10 stamina = +3 spell power (SP) from the Touched by the Light talent.
The Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise talents increase total stamina by 6% each, for a total increase of slightly more than 12% with both talents.
Suggestion: since BoK is still the 1st/2nd blessing for tankadins, consider adding the values after its effect is included. (People can easily miss the bolded line.)
A common overlook is 1 point of parry rating provides more avoidance than 1 point of agility BUT after BoK is considered, 1 point of agility > parry rating slightly.
I didn't see it listed here so I need to ask, does anyone's rotation have Sacred Shield in it?
Sacred Shield
Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage and increasing the paladin's chance to critically hit with Flash of Light by 50% for up to 6 sec. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 sec. Lasts 30 sec.
Is that damage mitigation enough to even matter in a tanking rotation, and where would it fall in a 969 rotation?
It's situational. If threat/dps isn't a concern and the raid is taking steady damage, then find a way to weave it in and drop hotr or consecration from your rotation. I try to keep it up on myself + my healer + 2~3 melee dps on Sapphiron, and drop it on as many people as I can 20 seconds before vortex is due on Malygos Exchange myself for +1 melee if we have a healadin as they can't really afford the GCD's to keep it up on more then one person.
Ultimately, the -only- thing that matters is keeping holy shield and judgement on cooldown (provided you have the bv libram). Everything else is just gravy.
Also, the mana loss from keeping SS up on yourself conflicting with SA is negligible on content that matters(tm) enough to be using SS on yourself in the first place.
I wanted to perhaps bring up the point that perhaps we shouldnt be talking about "threat" and "threat per second". Rather these seem to be non-issues, and decision making always will end up in the "lets go with the damage reduction". But instead, I've found that tank DPS makes up a significant and important proportion of total raid DPS. In which case, it may be important to still be gearing for DPS in situations. Obviously most people will do this naturally with trying to stack things like block value (especially while the two ranks shield of righteousness are unlinked), which will contribute directly to DPS and damage mitigation all at once. Specifically, if you consider TPS alone, and therefore discard it entirely, you may come to conclusions that suggest "parry" or "dodge" may be better value, but with the consideration of DPS also, you may consider block value just a little more important.
Of course, that only possibly applies very situationally.
The thing about tps/dps is that you will get enough of it incidentally such that gearing/gemming for it is a bad idea. Doing 1900 dps vs. 1800 dps is not going to significantly change 99% of boss fights as much as having another 2% mitigation/avoidance will. I mean, I'll be keeping a BV set around for when I'm repping heroics or doing heigen or other stupid easy fights, but in terms of progression tanking raw mitigation/avoidance is better in every way then upping your personal dps/tps by a few points.
I think that's why I hulk out and kill kittens whenever I see a ton of people on maintankadin talking about how potency is such a greater weapon enchant then agility.
BV/BR is more of an AE tanking stat. It is nice to have, and ideally all our tanking loot would have +def, +dodge and +br as the meta stats instead of the absolute terrible array of +experitise and +parry crap currently out there...but BV varies in value quite a bit and unfortunately with the way things are in Naxx the fights where BV really shine are trivial to begin with (hi2u Loatheb and taking 0 damage from anything but impending doom.)
Again, it's a nice stat to have but you will get enough of it incidentally that you shouldn't focus on gemming/gearing for it.
The only real rule you need to follow as a protadin is "The only thing worse then parry rating is expertise."
The only real rule you need to follow as a protadin is "The only thing worse then parry rating is expertise."
Actually, I think I'd place parry rating below expertise. At least expertise gives you some mitigation from parry-hasting, which I will admit is much diminished in value due to parry-hasting typically being turned off in those instances where expertise would be of greatest benefit (hello there Patchwerk). And there's still the fact that white damage does comprise a slightly higher percentage of our threat than it used to, so expertise, while not as valuable as hit, is non-trivial. In any event, I gem my red sockets with +str/+def simply because it's a conveniently powerful stat that provides both threat and mitigation. This isn't TBC, where we gemmed and enchanted to max out our avoidance and effective health.
BV/BR is more of an AE tanking stat. It is nice to have, and ideally all our tanking loot would have +def, +dodge and +br as the meta stats instead of the absolute terrible array of +experitise and +parry crap currently out there...but BV varies in value quite a bit and unfortunately with the way things are in Naxx the fights where BV really shine are trivial to begin with (hi2u Loatheb and taking 0 damage from anything but impending doom.)"
It's good to strike a balance between block and dodge, but you have to remember that BV scales exponentially as you block more and more damage per hit, and dodge gives you less return the more you stack. Block also is very nice for your healers as your damage intake is less spiky. True BV excels in AE tanking but it is also a very valuable stat for single targets.
If you need more avoidance for times when you know you are going to get railed, then throw on a dodge trinket and eat some dodge food.
A common overlook is 1 point of parry rating provides more avoidance than 1 point of agility BUT after BoK is considered, 1 point of agility > parry rating slightly.
I agree with your post in general, but the statement that X provides more avoidance than Y is dependent on the current balance of avoidance stats due to diminishing returns and can never be stated absolutely.
The unfortunate itemization of so many of the best in slot avoidance items towards a split between defense, dodge, and parry ratings instead of straight defense rating (which would be the best avoidance stat to stack if we could pick how each of our pieces were itemized) means that the diminishing returns felt by dodge vs parry, vary depending on which other items you already have. For example, there could be a situation where all of your other gear skews heavily towards dodge, and the diminishing returns from dodge on the BoK granted agility would not provide as much avoidance as parry.
Speaking of threat-assisting weapon enchants, it strikes me that Titanium Weapon Chain and/or Enchant Weapon - Accuracy should both offer superior threat generation than Enchant Weapon - Superior Potency, since hit rating is going to make threat land more consistently as well as up SotR threat (where AP doesn't). The added benefit of reducing taunt misses is great as well.
Given that the agility from Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Agility will only increase dodge by around 0.5-0.6% (depending on buffs) and armor very slightly, I would think the taunt resist gain from hit rating would be preferable.
Of course, this assumes that you aren't hit capped already...
12/01/08, 11:05 AM
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