The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK) - Page 51

Finkum · 02/28/09, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ciremo

Also, is there some super magic formula which shows how much higher your dodge can be than your parry before the DR makes stacking parry more beneficial?

I'm not sufficiently up on the maths to help you with this myself, but the Combat Ratings at Level 80 thread first post should have the info you need.

In practice there is only a limited amount of i213/i226 tanking loot so it's pretty hard to stack either parry or dodge to an insane extent unless you dip into i200 stuff.

Prinsesa · 02/28/09, 1:07 PM

From a practical standpoint (since we are limited by whatever rating proportion/allocation Blizzard decides to throw at us), there is NO point when parry is better than dodge at providing avoidance on a per-one-rating basis.

The lower parry cap and the presence of parry from unavoidable amounts of defense rating virtually guarantee that you cannot distribute your stats to an extent where dodge becomes so diminished that it becomes worse than parry.

As well, the distinction between parry and dodge, by themselves, mean very little. If you're looking at avoidance, you have to consider avoidance as a whole, based on the sum of all the avoidance-contributing stats on an item (TankPoints is good at this).

The only time you have to decide between parry and dodge is during gemming and enchanting, in which case dodge is always better than parry (unless you have no choice).

Cathela · 02/28/09, 3:45 PM

As Prinsea said, parry rating is never better than dodge rating.

If you're comparing dodge rating to defense rating, someone on another site (TankSpot I believe) showed that the optimal thing to do is usually to keep your ratio of defense rating to dodge rating between 1.5:1 and 2:1. There's a link to this source in the OP.

Solieu · 03/02/09, 4:56 AM

Rawr 2.2.0b3 has been released and includes all my most recent changes to Rawr.Tankadin:

Shield of Righteousness added to Threat Rotation

As a result, Shield Block Value now has a Threat component

Fix to Expertise's Threat Value

Updated Model for Reckoning benefits (it still ain't that great)

Added Resilience to Crit Avoidance Calculations

Added Uncrittability, Defense, Chance to Hit, Chance to be Hit, Avoidance, Health, etc to Optimizer

On top of that, Rawr 2.2.0 includes a new gemming template system.

Coming soon is Libram of Obstruction and Resurgence Modeling, Glyph Support, and Seal choice.

---

get it here: Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.2.0b3

and keep following Rawr at Rawr - Home

VorenusKJ · 03/02/09, 3:44 PM

First of, I've been reading this post for some time. Thank you very much for all the helpful information.

Originally Posted by Cathela

As Prinsea said, parry rating is never better than dodge rating.

If you're comparing dodge rating to defense rating, someone on another site (TankSpot I believe) showed that the optimal thing to do is usually to keep your ratio of defense rating to dodge rating between 1.5:1 and 2:1. There's a link to this source in the OP.

This made me actually want to post. Are you really saying that its never worth it to add parry over dodge?
I can understand if you're saying that its better to gem for Dodge than Parry. But because of DR on dodge, it seems to me like there would be a point at which adding parry would actually increase overall avoidance as compared to dodge.
For example, 23% Dodge, 17% Parry. It seems to me like in this situation adding 8 Parry would add more avoidance than 8 Dodge.

Or were you saying that with the current itemization, there is no point at which a person would actually be faced with such a choice?
I'm really curious because of the Rune of Repulsion trinket, it always just sits in my bank but I always wonder.

gcbirzan · 03/02/09, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by VorenusKJ

Or were you saying that with the current itemization, there is no point at which a person would actually be faced with such a choice?

Yes. At current normal itemization (level 80 and such), there is no point at which DR will make one dodge rating worth less avoidance than one parry rating.

Prinsesa · 03/03/09, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by VorenusKJ

Are you really saying that its never worth it to add parry over dodge?
I can understand if you're saying that its better to gem for Dodge than Parry.

No, I am not saying that it is never worth adding parry over dodge. The [Bracers of the Herald] from Heroic Ahn'Kahet have parry, but since they're the only ones of their kind until the [Minion Bracers] from Naxx10 trash, the Herald is still absolutely an upgrade.

Yes, I am saying that it is always better to gem and enchant for dodge over parry.

If it's a entire item, look at the item's avoidance total as a whole (defense rating, dodge rating and parry rating).

If it's a gem or enchant, that's when you always bet on dodge.

=======

On a different note, I saw this posted on the Ret thread:

Originally Posted by Cevil

Surprised no one has pointed this out yet, but Premonition posted a parse of their Patchwerk DPS Test from the PTR last night, and along with a great bunch of data about tanking (Prot Paladins are lagging, surprise!)

Since that was a DPS thread, I wanted to ask here: Why would we be lagging? I wasn't aware that Prot Paladins had any glaring scaling issues, except perhaps a lack of pushable panic buttons.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on the situation?

Cathela · 03/03/09, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by VorenusKJ

This made me actually want to post. Are you really saying that its never worth it to add parry over dodge?
I can understand if you're saying that its better to gem for Dodge than Parry. But because of DR on dodge, it seems to me like there would be a point at which adding parry would actually increase overall avoidance as compared to dodge.
For example, 23% Dodge, 17% Parry. It seems to me like in this situation adding 8 Parry would add more avoidance than 8 Dodge.

Or were you saying that with the current itemization, there is no point at which a person would actually be faced with such a choice?
I'm really curious because of the Rune of Repulsion trinket, it always just sits in my bank but I always wonder.

Others have already answered this. but straight from the horse's mouth, this is the TankSpot post I was referring to.

• promdates · 03/03/09, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Since that was a DPS thread, I wanted to ask here: Why would we be lagging? I wasn't aware that Prot Paladins had any glaring scaling issues, except perhaps a lack of pushable panic buttons.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on the situation?

What he meant was that Protection Paladins are the worst tank in the game. We take more damage and we have less "Oh Shit" buttons. There isn't much that we do, that another class can't probably do better. The fact that the Premonition Patchwerk (Tank Test) parses from the 3.1 PTR are a good indicator that we're not exactly that well off.

Link to Tank Test by Premonition

We have good avoidance according to their test, but took the most damage out of the 4 tanking classes. The paladin that they used was from deep in the original thread. You can find their name in the WWS linked within the wow forum link. Basically, everyone said that the paladin won the lotto and was able to live an extra 30 seconds compared to the warrior and druid.

Ivriniel · 03/03/09, 2:48 AM

I don't have a WWS from this weeks Malygos but according to recount Ardent Defender got frog leaped by the breath damage, and there I was dead on the floor wondering why I tought it got fixed in 3.0.1.
If AD would work properly, and actually reduce any damage we take that gets us below 35% health, we'd be alot better against those hard hitting bosses.

Don't get me wrong it's a nice talent and actually did save me in many situations, but it's still a bit lacking.

About Divine Protection and Forbearance, maybe it could be changed to require a shield (just like shieldwall) and as trade off the damage reduction and the Forbearance could be removed from it (Yes it'd be even more of a warrior ShieldWall copy then).

Smithist · 03/03/09, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

If AD would work properly, and actually reduce any damage we take that gets us below 35% health, we'd be alot better against those hard hitting bosses.

Based on the description I can't imagine why you think it should work in any way other than how it currently does. Obviously it would be nice if it functioned in the way you describe, but I think it's clearly not what they want the talent to do.

path411 · 03/03/09, 3:47 AM

Originally Posted by stabbymcgee

What he meant was that Protection Paladins are the worst tank in the game. We take more damage and we have less "Oh Shit" buttons. There isn't much that we do, that another class can't probably do better. The fact that the Premonition Patchwerk (Tank Test) parses from the 3.1 PTR are a good indicator that we're not exactly that well off.

Link to Tank Test by Premonition

We have good avoidance according to their test, but took the most damage out of the 4 tanking classes. The paladin that they used was from deep in the original thread. You can find their name in the WWS linked within the wow forum link. Basically, everyone said that the paladin won the lotto and was able to live an extra 30 seconds compared to the warrior and druid.

I really don't see how paladins are worse than warriors in these results. The paladin lasted longer and took less DPS.

Also I think there is something screwed up with the Paladin "longest" test as the paladin ended up dying to a hateful, skewing the results since he got 1 shot (even though he had just lived through a 4 hit streak).

You also have to realise that the DTPS and Avoidance tests are the only ones with any decent sample size, as the fight lengths were really just tests of RNG at one point in time (due to basically the RNG of a 3hit streak happening).

vorda · 03/03/09, 4:38 AM

The paladin lasted longer and took less DPS.

Also I think there is something screwed up with the Paladin "longest" test as the paladin ended up dying to a hateful, skewing the results since he got 1 shot (even though he had just lived through a 4 hit streak).

They already claimed the paladin got extremely lucky avoidance-wise, more so than other classes. I hate it when AD does absolutely nothing useful in a fight.

As for him dying twice, he actually died after that 42k hit (with xxxx blocked), zoned back in and got 1shot from a hateful again.
No errors there.

• promdates · 03/03/09, 4:39 AM

Ratanna got lucky with the RNG and was able to last longer than Xav did. A few of the members of Premonition made mention of that in both threads.

2 minute parse:
Xav 38 (28.8%) Dodge, 25 (18.9%) Parry, 23 (17.4%) Miss, 32 (24.2%) Block
Rat 43 (33.3%) Dodge, 31 (24.0%) Parry, 17 (13.2%) Miss, 35 (27.1%) Block

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure how many paladins really stack dodge to 27%, and drop their block down to 11-12% for bosses. We weren't meant to be the "avoidance" tank of the 4.

vorda · 03/03/09, 4:47 AM

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure how many paladins really stack dodge to 27%, and drop their block down to 11-12% for bosses. We weren't meant to be the "avoidance" tank of the 4.

He didn't really 'drop' his block, the combat roll just has block last on the list, so if your avoidance rises, your block lowers. (but you knew that already I think

).

Anyway, it's not total avoidance we should be looking at either here, they clearly claimed that the pala had some very lucky avoidance streaks near the 20 stack mark (or how high was it), the point where it really decides your survival (and where DK's are so damn overpowered because of their abilities + WoTN).