qixxin

For a tank like Marlah with dodge = 30.3%, parry = 19.6% and miss = 9.3% (before DM), Major Agility will give 0.29% avoidance, Titanweave will give 0.24% avoidance after DM. For a tank with dodge = 24%, parry = 18% and miss = 9.3% (before DM), Major Agility will give 0.32% avoidance and Titanweave 0.26% after DM (These were calculated using Satrina's data over at tankspot).
While I'm sure at some point Titanweave will give more avoidance that Major Agility, I don't think it will happen much in practice and this still doesn't include the block vs armor of the enchants as well.
I think Major Agility out performs Titanweave for avoidance because dodge suffers less than parry and miss on DM due to dodge having a much larger cap (88% opposed to 47% and 16% respectively).

 

Dulkal

I was thinking it might be an idea to mention the upcoming JC nerf (Dragon's Eyes are having their prismatic quality removed). Right now, JC is a very good profession for just about any class/role. But after the nerf goes through, it'll "only" be on par with the other professions when it comes to point value.

Also, how come this isn't a Think Tank article?

 

Marlah

<From a MTs point of view>

I am currently skilling up both blacksmithing and also considering changing Inscription for JC. Why?

Even if the prismatic quality is removed on Dragon's Eye I still think it will be the best profession for a tank in an min/max point ov view. The +41 sta gems will most likley be blue sockets. 3x41 sta or even going for 2x 41 sta and putting in an 27 agi gem in one red slot, to get that meta socket working, it is still really good. And, untill I get Heart of Iron to use together with my Yogg10 sta-trinket I think the JC sta-trinket is definetly awesome.

And besides, how good are the other professions really?

Herbalism/Skinning are wasted on a main char, especially a tank. Invest 5k gold and farm stuff on your favourite alt.
Inscription gives an awesome dodge boost, sure, but in comparison to BC/JC it is not too hot (+30sta 15resi pvp-shoulder enchant is a good option, especially for an MT).

Leatherworking is, in my opinion, a boring profession. And if I want to get that +50sta advantage I would rather pick up enchanting (+48 sta) or even mining (+50 sta). Based purely on how much money these professions can generate).

You won't reach over 100 extra stamina combining 2 of the following: bs, lw, ench, mining

From JC alone you can reach 123 stamina (41x3). Combine it with ench, lw, mining or bs and you can gain another 50 stamina.

 

Proudmoore

Referring to Jewelcrafting, you're forgetting that a 41 stamina gem replaces a 24 stamina one, so it's "only" 17*3 or 51 stamina bonus. The trinket is nice, though, whether or not you're a stamina junky. Plus, it's by far the most versatile bonus, allowing for Str in a block or ret set, int in your Holy gear etc. No-one who has half a mind is arguing that it's good.

Although this has been addressed in goodness knows how many other places, so it really doesn't need rehashing.

 

◊ Cathela

Base dodge and parry also operate outside the diminishing returns, as well as dodge from base agility. Most T7+ geared tanks are at around 75% DR for dodge and parry, and below 50% for miss. So roughly 0.34% full avoidance for major agility and 0.19% for titanweave. You'll probably already have close to 50% full avoidance raid-buffed, so the relative avoidance numbers are more like 0.68% and 0.38% respectively.

I prefer the 0.51% relative mitigation from the armor enchant, but I've got a bias towards armor over avoidance.

Mainly because I'm anal about finishing it before making it into one. Wraithlin's asked me to make it into one, and I'm always thinking "just as soon as I add sections on ____, ____, and ____." (And yeah, I do need to update the profession section with the JC change.)

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

dotcow

I am new to prot paladin tanking and tanking for that matter and was wondering why I am having such mana issues. I find myself running low on mana all the time in 5 mans, and I can't keep threat very well with mages in the group (5 mans).

I'm using seal of corruption, devotion aura, blessing of sanctuary and keeping righteous fury up at all times.

I also use divine plea whenever it's up.

The rotation I'm using is:

Shield of Righteousness, Consecration, Hammer of the Righteous, Holy Shield, Judgement of Wisdom

Any advice would be greatly appreciated..

 

vorda

If mana is an issue, running with 1/2 SA looks pretty.. not-smart.
As for general rotation and spec question, the first post covers that.

 

qixxin

Quite correct, I did forget to factor base dodge/parry in. However, even when you include this, the numbers are still pretty similar.
Similar (but slightly more accurate) to my previous example: dodge = 30.3%, parry = 19.6%, miss = 10.6% (converted from 689 defence rating) before DM (Side note: this assumes that the 123 defence rating to 1% miss chance is before DM which I may be wrong on).
So our base avoidance after DM becomes: dodge = 27.65%, parry = 18.27%, miss = 9.3%.
With the major agility enchant it becomes: dodge = 27.97%, parry = 18.27%, miss = 9.3%, which is a gain of 0.32% avoidance.
The titanweave enchant gives us: dodge = 27.74%, parry = 18.37%, miss = 9.36%, which is a net gain of 0.26% avoidance.
Thus, Major agility only gives 0.066% more avoidance that Titanweave at these figures. I just wanted to show that stacking defence rating gives more avoidance than most people think =)



On a side note, you say in the original post, under the defence rating heading:
However in this blue post, Daelo says: "We just restarted the servers to fix an issue with the diminishing returns formula we added for Dodge, Parry, and the enemy's chance to miss you", which unless they changed things from the beta or I misunderstand that, it would mean that miss is on the DR.

 

Maelstrom

As has been said above, 1 out of 2 points in spiritual attunement is bad for 5man tanking really. It's only really viable for 25man boss tanking and even then I personally think it's a bit reckless. You can swap a point from crusade into spiritual attunement if you wanna keep 5/5 conviction.

Personally though I prefer my current spec (See profile to the left), especially since divinity will help you live a bit longer whilst you're gearing up.

Other tips would be: Always have divine plea running, if you can pull trash packs quicker (So long as your healer can keep up) then it will never drop off (As Guarded by the Light - Spell - World of Warcraft will refresh divine plea every time you hit stuff), resulting in much more mana for you to work with.

 

Satrina

All credit for the work is Whitetooth's; I just wrote it up as a follow-the-dots article.

Yep, we knew long ago that miss is definitely on diminishing returns, thanks to Daelo. Whitetooth has since parsed it all out for warriors and determined the cap at 16%. Given that for warrior/paladin/death knight the DR coefficient is same, and the caps for dodge and parry are all the same, it's resonable to expect that the miss cap is the same for all three as well. I wouldn't care to make a guess what the druid miss cap is, but it's not like they stack defense anyway.

It's also worth noting that the tooltip for defense shows you only the non-diminished contribution to miss chance from defense. It does not include the 5% basic miss chance, nor does it count quickness for night elves or any other additions. You can find macros to calculate the various avoidance totals, including correct total miss chance, here: WotLK Block cap + Pure avoidance macros - TankSpot

 

tekkel

On top of that the best advice for any pallytank outgearing a place is to take a ret pally with you. Divine plea+ 100% uptime on replenish+chainpull results in not going oom and mostly full mana bars.
And you are outgearing heroics.

 

◊ Cathela

Yeah, at the time I first started the guide it was assumed that there was no DR on miss, or at least nobody had been able to identify one. I've updated that and the JC section.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Jackinthegreen

Ret pally or any class that's specced into Replenishment really. Each one of course gives certain benefits, such as a hunter having misdirect for even more pulling power.

 

Sociology

So after reading the mechanics I was already familiar with - built my own talent tree - and tank much differently than most Paladins for my own reasons - I was still curious to a couple of things I was unable to find in here.

1- How is DR calculated, thus knowing my total avoidance after DR? - Currently sitting at 29.63% Dodge / 17.65% Parry / 540 Def

2- Knowing all this, I am stacking 676 Dodge rating - When do I know that DR is affecting me so much that stacking Parry at this time is just a better idea to bring up my total avoidance?

3- Is stacking Dodge rating vs Agility after raid buff (MotW/Kings) better for overall dodge?(mainly speaking of gems here)

4- We all know def is the best stat to bring up your total avoidance - so should I be socketing defense?(at this point I only do so to hit 540 cap)

5- Should I worry to stack more than 540 defense

Thank you for all the replies

tAS

 

Tyrova

At the top of this thread it says under construction. The only thing i have to add is that i personally feel it is WAY too long (compared to other EJ guides with which i believe have similar intentions)
Also,
Wheres the "Standard Tanking Build 0/51/20" (or whatever it is at the time) wowhead talent link?
beyond those two things, loved it.

 

Hallio

Simple question yet has it troubled my mind quite a bit:
I'm having trouble staying at the Defense cap and seeing myself having to get more and more defense enchants and even gems. (only items left from naxx and pre-naxx is T7.5 shoulders wich i plan to keep, T7.5 gloves, Sand worm band and the JC trinket wich i hope to trade in for the 10 man Yogg trinket) rest is all 226+ items. Will update my armory with prot specc and prot gear as soon as i get home from work (in about 2½ hours)
So the question is if you have any advise towards if im dooing my gearing wrong? Or how to stay above the defense cap as i see many of the items on my wish list would lower my defense even more (helm of Vezax and signet of winter in particular).

 

• frmorrison

If you don't have 689 defense rating or more, than you are doing something wrong. There is a Naxx-10 defense trinket if you really need Defense. There are Chest, Shield and Cloak Defense enchants, and using Defense gems isn't a bad thing to do while you are upgrading items.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Hallio

Ofcourse i have the required defense. Its not like ive just dinged 80 ^^ The problem is that for me it seems that some of the most desireable Ulduar items seems to get me low on defense, wondering if using stm+resilience shoulder enchant would be a good idea.

While i still have the last: Ive logged out in my prot gear but armory seems really slow at updating.

 

jarelie

I am using 30 stam 15 resi shoulder enchant; it reduces chance to be critically hit by %0,18; slightly more then 20 dodge 15 def shoulder enchant; ( almost 1 defence ); if the aim is to make up for defence it's not really a very good option, but i use it mainly because i am gearing up for EH and 30 stamina is quite nice for that.

 

vorda

I have the feeling people have a too bad view on defense. (as in, trying to enchant something else just because it's possible)

Let's see what we have:
Chest: boils down to 250 hp or 22 def rating. I personally prefer the defense rating, since hp doesn't scale with talents/kings, making it not that amazing. But in general, it's going to be a close call.
Cloak: 16 defense or 225 armor. I value these about the same, personal preference going to towards armor.
Shield: 20 def, 40 block value or 18 stamina. No brainer I'd say.

Also, you are probably using quite a few 8def/12sta gems in your yellow slots, since even with a 6 sta bonus, these are worth it already.
When bosses are hitting for 20k+, don't underestimate the value of defense rating as avoidance stat.

edit: don't forget the hard mode mimiron cloak: [Titanskin Cloak] . This item alone is enough to start using stuff like [Signet of Winter] and still not having to bother about defense.

 

qixxin

1. Firstly, it's worth saying that the in game character sheet stats do show dodge/parry after diminishing returns. The tooltip is just worded badly, it is referring the dodge/parry from rating (the second line) that is before DM. These two posts explain how DM is calculated rather well: post 1, post 2.
2. Around the 625 dodge rating mark, dodge and parry are giving similar returns point for point, however you never get gear with just one parry rating, so I wouldn't recommend swapping gear around until you get to the 700 mark. Just remember that parry will quickly outpace dodge again, so stacking parry heavily isn't recommended.
3. Point for point dodge rating will always give more dodge than agility even after including kings (MotW does not affect the results as it is a flat increase), you don't even need to factor DM in here as they are on the same DM.
4. In my opinion it's a matter of taste. Personally I try to socket for stamina where possible to give some extra 'soak'.
5. Again in my opinion it's a matter of personal style

 

Jackinthegreen

To save yourself the hassle of regemming (and possibly re-enchanting) later on when you get an "upgrade" with less defense on it, I'd suggest you stay above 540 actually. That way you can still stay above cap say if you get an upgrade in the middle of a dungeon and you'd rather not leave to redo everything. Keep hold of the trinket from Naxx 10 (or reg HoL) if you need a serious defense boost, or switch out rings and so forth too.

 

Valendil

Is this assuming you have 0 parry rating and 625 dodge rating? Or just the difference between parry ratings and dodge ratings is over 625?
In my current gear(29.04% dodge/660 rating, 18.62% parry/221 rating, 439 difference in ratings), to gain another 1% of pure avoidance it requires ~61 dodge rating or ~70 parry rating. I'm not sure there's enough gear without parry rating on it to ever have a low enough overall parry % to make gemming for parry worthwhile(assuming all Uld 10/25man gear).

 

Ranjurm

An assumption of 0 parry rating and exactly 625 dodge rating and 689 defense rating. Any different combination will dictate different results. In fact it isn't even valid to say you should switch to parry gems with that exact combo since gaining more than 1 parry rating will throw things back into the favor of dodge and you can only gain 8 or more parry at a time. You also have to take into consideration dodge from agility. If you are serious about absolute maximizing your avoidance then you must use a spread sheet or add on. If you want the frank answer for nearly all of the tanking population then use dodge over parry and don't think twice about it.

 

◊ Cathela

Yeah, the guide suffers a bit from what the military calls "mission creep". I kept flip-flopping back and forth between wanting to write a complete guide to everything and just including advanced material for people who already know the basics.

I didn't include a cookie-cutter link because I was in an "advanced material only" mood when I wrote the talent portion, though now that I think about it I probably should have put one in even so. Maybe I'll go back and do that later.

Parry and dodge from defense rating is included in the diminishing returns, and assuming you're crit-immune you'll have a minimum of 5% in each from defense; since parry has a lower cap that 140 defense skill will push parry further down the DR curve than dodge.

If my math is correct, at 15% parry (i.e., 5% base + 5% talent + 5% from defense), the reduction factor for additional parry is 84.71%. In order for parry and dodge to provide point-for-point equal avoidance, you'd have to stack enough dodge to bring dodge down to a 49.01% marginal return. That would require 38.85% dodge from agility and dodge rating before diminishing returns, or 27.81% after diminishing.

TLDR: If you're ever in a situation where your parry rate is 15% and your dodge rate is over 35%, that's when it's time to start considering gemming for parry. In other words, there will never be a practical situation where parry rating beats dodge rating.

That's worth doing in heroics or Naxx10 when you're replacing blues with epics. But once you're doing epic-to-epic upgrades, pretty much everything that drops requires a full round of enchanting and gemming before it becomes a true upgrade anyway.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.