Thorgred

For a paladin, the risk of being parry-gibbed is negligible at any attack speed, compared to a warrior, DK or Druid. We simply don't have enough parryable attacks. A warrior will have 2 to 3 times the amount of parryable attacks as we do.

The whole 'Reckoning=parrygib" thing was invented to deter people from a bad talent in BC.
It is quite possible that Reckoning and Seals of the Pure will become superior DPS talents now.

 

Belladin

EDIT: I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking after typing something in the Quick Reply area, and when I tried to navigate away, it posted nonetheless. Apoligies.

 

• Mex

While I think there were a couple of humorous <1 second gibs from Prince / Tidewalker etc shown to be caused by reckoning in logs in TBC, it still constituted a viable TPS talent because of how well SoR scaled compared to the rest of our crappy single target TPS abilities. With 3.0's SoV, reckoning suddenly became exceptionally worthless in terms of TPS, and a lot of people started to cite its ability to parry-gib as a reason to absolutely avoid taking it.

At the end of the day, it IS a danger, mostly because of the way parry-hasting works and the fact that both reckoning hits land at the same time, potentially giving you two swings within about 0.4 seconds of each other. Yes it is probably overhyped by a lot of people, but it's also not simply a myth, either. With Ulduar bosses hitting as hard as they do, parry haste is something that people should be aware of, although that said it does appear to be disabled on several bosses.

Hovering at the expertise soft-cap, you're looking at about a 1% chance (slightly less) of having two melee swings parried at once. Multiply that by the chance that these parries cause the next swing to land within 1 second of the previous. This is somewhat harder to determine, but assume that the parries have to occur in the first 40% of the swing timer (~1 second), and will reduce it to ~0.5 seconds. You're looking at roughly 20% of all attacks landing at a time where, if they're both parried, you'll take two hits in <1 second (20% more will cause 2 hits in ~1.5 seconds, 40% will cause 2 hits within 1.5-2 seconds, 20% more will have no effect). So let's say 0.2% chance to land a really really bad double parry. Then multiply that by your chance to be hit twice in a row, say roughly 16%, and you're looking at a 0.032% chance to be 'parry-gibbed'. If you want to really get crazy you could even try to figure out the chance that one of your healers will land a big heal in between the two hits, saving you.

The above is very rough, of course, and my memory of the exact mechanics of parry haste is probably a little hazy. Going off those numbers though, that's a parry-gib every ~3000 reckoning swings, or so. Shouldn't be enough to dissuade people from taking the talent if they need the TPS, but on the other hand, it's something you're likely to see happen maybe once every week or so of progression. More expertise, more avoidance, and on-the-ball / spammy healers will all even more drastically reduce the chances of this happening. Just remember that it is possible, although highly unlikely.

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. ... this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.

 

Wrathblood

The additional risk incurred from parry-gibbing by reckoning has always been small, not just because the odds are relatively remove as Mex describes (really, if the risk of getting parry gibbed because of Reckoning was high enough to be a serious problem, warrior and druid tanks would have been shelved ages ago since their chance of it happening is 2-3x that of a paladin), but also because getting parry gibbed was an issue warrior tanks used to have (but no longer do) because of crushing blows.

Shield block absorbed 2 hits every 5 seconds and then went away, which would leave them vulnerable to Crushing Blows. In a standard tank 'n spank fight against a boss with a 2 second swing timer, the timing had to be just about perfect for the boss to knock down both charges and then land a potentially fatal Crushing Blow before you could get another Shield Block up, UNLESS the boss got a couple parries off the tank or off a melee dps who failed to stay behind the boss. That's why parry-gibbing was such a big deal, it was the only way bosses could crush the tank.

Paladins, with 8 HS charges, never had to worry about that except under very rare situations (Prince landing a couple thrashes in a row) and the removal of Crushing Blows as a mechanic made the point moot.

 

• frmorrison

Some bosses have the parry-gibbing turned off, like Kologarn and Mimiron, while others certainly are ready and willing to parry-gib (Auriaya).

Considering the addition of Pally Demo shout and higher tps talents (SotP), I don't see spare points for the talent anyway.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

jarelie

how is new vindication supposed to be protadin demo shout? isnt it like %90 weaker? or i see numbers wrong?

 

Marcos

It probably (hopefully) scales with the level of the Paladin.

 

NumNutts69

I have always been somewhat against taking the Reckoning talent, but I am curious to know if the blade ward enchant would actually make this a desirable talent since its proc is a chance on hit

 

• promdates

New tanking seal is Righteousness, with Vengeance/Corruption being the new Ret seal.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

Qalor

While that does make a lot of sense, have you seen anything actually saying this? I haven't seen any mention of buffing seal of righteousness, whereas vengeance was buffed. Any buffs to righteousness might send off another wave of rebalancing, just like they had at the beginning of this expansion.

 

• promdates

* Paladin T9 Holy Relic (Judgement) (Class: Paladin) -- Each time you use a Judgement, you have a chance to gain 234 spell power for 20 sec.
* Paladin T9 Retribution Relic (Seal of Vengeance) (Class: Paladin) -- Each time your Seal of Vengeance ability deals periodic damage, you have a chance to gain 200 strength for 16 sec.
* Paladin T9 Protection Relic (Hammer of The Righteous) (Class: Paladin) -- Each time you use your Hammer of The Righteous ability, you have a chance to gain 200 dodge rating for 18 sec.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

• Mex

Without serious changes to righteousness, SoV will remain the tanking seal. I honestly have no idea where the "SoR will remain a tanking seal" came from, since it hasn't been used for tanking (apart from very specific situations where absolutely maximising pickup threat is of paramount importance, since SoR does more damage than SoV until the stacks are up) since TBC.

In any situation, the mere fact that SoV now scales with weapon damage means that it will still most likely outpace SoR at some point (even if SoR coefficients get a significant boost). Already at the moment, I believe there are achievable gear setups where SoB will produce better TPS than SoV.

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. ... this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.

 

• promdates

They're removing Seal of Blood/Martyr. They also said that they're going to do redo the seals, and this just pushes it towards using SoR for tanking and SoV for ret.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

Jackinthegreen

The numbers tell a different story, and why not have Ret AND Prot using the same seal? Makes sense since it causes more overall damage, and our threat is based on how much holy damage we do.

As Mex said, SoR is only used in places where upfront threat is necessary as opposed to consistent threat. Also keep in mind that SoR only works when we're actually swinging, but SoV still causes damage when we aren't smacking whatever around. I'll stick with SoV, since it's more reliable. As the saying goes "Slow and steady wins the race."

 

• frmorrison

You are seeing the level 11/12 ability. The devs wouldn't want a level 12 Pally removing as much AP like an 80 pally would remove.

I still would use SoV for tanking. With movement being a favorite mechanic in boss fights (especially with Arena), being able to constant generate threat sounds good. Note currently SoV's hit doesn't do much damage, so it doing 33% weapon damage after the 5 stack is a huge buff to the Seal that should make up for the weaker initial damage. SoR does not appear to be touched.

GC even made a post about it:
I meant that we're fine with Righteousness being pretty niche. It is used in some tanking situations (say if you can't have enough time for Vengeance to stack meaningfully) and it's used while leveling up.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Maelstrom

No.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - "Righteousness can remain a tanking seal"

SoV will be the tanking seal of choice still for the majority of situations. Upon reflection, it makes sense really that they'd want ret and prot using the same damage seal in PvE - at least from an itemisation PoV. That ret libram is a very tastey threat item for a prot paladin as well, for example.

On the subject of Vindication, I assume it works like Serrated Blades - Spell - World of Warcraft from the rogue subtlety tree. Serrated blades starts at 8 and increases based on your level. That said the current numbers dont seem to quite match up. Baseline it grants a greater attack power reduction than demo shout, but talented demo shout reduces AP slightly more. Although this may be a data mining issue and I'll report back once the PTR is online.

 

◊ Cathela

The problem with your argument is that you aren't explaining why prot paladins would shift from SoV to SoR.

It's certainly true that SoV will become the seal of choice for PvE Ret in 3.2, but that fact by itself isn't going to drive Prot paladins away from it.

EDIT:

Random related thought: Is it worth picking up SoC now for trash tanking? Since it's a flat percentage of weapon damage it no longer depends on a slow weapon.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Russta

Though it may be nice to have SoC for trash tanking, with the spec I have in mind, there really isn't a single point I would feel comfortable dropping anywhere that wouldn't make me feel detrimental on bosses. I would imagine this will be the same for most people's projected 3.2 specs as our luxury talent points are starting to become few and far between.

 

• emptyrepublic

I can't see any reason why Protection Paladins would move away from SoV. The overall mechanic is still the same but with extra damage on swings and Judgments. Protection Paladins like Vengeance because of the steady threat that the DoT generates and combined with Hammer of the Righteous allows for more efficient "AoE" threat generation without having to rely on the more expensive Consecration.

Unless Blizzard doesn't allow the DoT effect from Vengeance to proc to multiple targets through HotR I don't see Prot Paladins moving away from that seal.

 

Cranberry

I can confirm the new Vindication does scale with level. It reduced 500-odd AP for me at 80.

 

• promdates

I was just going off of what the blue posts had said. Since this was the day that the PTR went up and the librams were known, basing the information off the tanking libram being a buff for SoR not SoV.

Either way, I haven't been playing my paladin recently, or even as prot. So I'm slightly out of the loop now.

"On a scale of one to mein kampf, how many racists does it take to make a guild look terrible?"

[03:28] L_J: it's "olololo hero class"

[01:09:39] <DeeNogger> Any of the resident grammer nazis on right now?

 

• Chicken

The tanking libram is Hammer of the Righteous, not Seal of Righteousness.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Raistlin212

I'm still relying on the SoV glyph to get me Expertise, so I can't imagine I'm switching off that without a major reworking of the seals.

 

• Mex

The reason SoV is used is simply because it does more TPS. Consistency isn't really an issue, since the boss will be in your face for the entire fight on 99% of encounters. If SoR did more damage, it would be used. Similarly the HotR effect isn't as relevant -- all seals will proc on HotR, so you use the one which does the most TPS. There's also the fact that its glyph is disgustingly good as well.

I remember reading on the official WoW forums that vindication was 574 at 80. Take that with a grain of salt, although it is exactly equal to imp demo shout (410 * 1.4).

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. ... this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.

 

Ciremo

Can anyone confirm if the 30% melee swing damage from SoV is affected but Seals of the Pure?

And.. On a raid boss, how great effect does a vindication/demo shout debuff have on damage done by the boss? If it's negligible I'm likely to spend points otherwise.