• frmorrison

It didn't appear so, however I am sure SotP and SoV are still being tuned.

Vindication is better than demo shout (2 points vs 5 points) and very few Warriors put points into imp Demo Shout and debuffs more AP (574), so Vindication is the superior debuff. The only downside of Vindication is it may take a few melee hits to get it up.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Wrathblood

The way things currently stand on the PTR (and given that its the first build, we likely have a lot of changes to go through before it goes live) Vindication is a tricky nut for Prot Pallies to crack.

On the one hand, it looks like a pretty tasty survivability talent that would be hard to pass up and SOMEONE in the raid should probably be able to do it. Also, Ret pallies are getting some new places to spend their talent points (SotP in particular) and Vindication is a little less attractive now (to Ret, anyway. It was always really a solo/farming ability that you could stick in a raiding build because it offered miniscule but non-zero raid benefit and there was nowhere else to put the points), so maybe they'll keep specing into it for the utility, but maybe they won't.

On the other hand, with SotP and Reckoning suddenly looking like they might be attractive, there are likely to be even more useful places to put talent points than there used to be and the "Threat vs Survivability" decision gets a little more pointed.

I suspect it'll come down to how a particular raid is constructed as to whether its worthwhile. Personally, I'm eternally grateful to PoJ for letting me consistently make the Thaddius jump, and in my old guild, even doing 25s, I rarely got to run with a ret pally. Given the situation, me specing into HotC (to get to PoJ, Conviction and Crusade) always made perfect sense. In my new guild, there's always a ret pally along and often 2, so 90% of the time those are wasted points and there's a decent chance my build is no longer optimal. Context is everything.

 

Maelstrom

As a note for other PTR protadins, I've been testing Vindication on my old buddy Thrym. Does vindication only proc off yellow attacks at the moment? It dropped off frequently if I just ran autoattacks, but as soon as I used specials it was constantly refreshed. Obviously this isn't a massive issue since nobody tanks raids with just autoattack, but something to be aware of. I made a feedback ticket suggesting increasing its duration as well, 10 seconds seems a little feeble now.

 

Ranjurm

Maintankadin has reported that it procs off the following specials (all ranged or melee)
ShoR
Judgement
HotR
AS

Did you happen to be using a slow weapon for your testing? The poster at maintankadin reported that they had little issue with it falling off.

 

Xoleum

There is a concern I have about my paladin tank... what's up with hit rating? The items are heavily LACKING on hit rating... I don't want to be enchanting or geming for hit rating. What would be a good average to have hit rating at? You can check my armory for more details on my char. I'm mostly Naxx25/U10/U25.

 

Ranjurm

You shouldn't be concerned about hit rating really. If you get some good, if you don't, you don't.

 

Gunn

I disagree Hit is one of my favorite stats for threat and no one likes a missed taunt.

 

Nutron

After further testing, it doesnt seem to modify it, I just got an unlucky string of higher hits ;(

 

Ranjurm

It is inferior to Str. And while you may not like a missed taunt you have two, and a HoP. Additionally you'll never get HoR to be a 100% hit in a reasonable gear set. Additionally in most tanking situations with the exception of Hodir hard mode, sustained threat is not an issue and should it be you would be looking for str.

 

◊ Cathela

Each taunt that you miss and have to "redo" costs time. That may not be a big deal in single-target situations, but when you're trying to pick up multiple targets quickly (e.g., Sarth, Thorim arena, Freya adds) every GCD counts.

Sure, sustained threat isn't an issue most of the time--that's the point. Hit is for burst threat and picking things up. After you've been tanking the mob for 10 seconds nobody's going to pull it off of you no matter what you're wearing. But missing your opening ShR can be a problem.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Bonemage

The second taunt has the down side of pulling multiple mobs, which while an advantage at times can be terrible at others, i.e. grabbing a newly spawned Yogg add off the shuttling tank + the one that needs to die down there, grabbing the new add off the tank plus the boss the other tank already had and risking a gib from bad timing and HoP is useless to disastrous in these situation as well.

 

vorda

While I fully agree that missed taunts in certain situations is (very) bad, missing a taunt costs no TPS since our taunts are not on the GCD.

As for hit rating, I find it extremely easy to make myself a tank set with over 200 hit rating without even trying. Charred saronite greaves, mimiron's bracers, hit rating neck from badges, hit rating gloves from badges, accuracy on weapon if you must (I have shiver with blade warding and titanguard with accuracy).
If you really really need hit rating, buy [Battlemaster's Accuracy] . Though I must admit, I only use it on Auriaya when I am add tank.

 

Varuk

Every time you miss your first shield of righteousness a warlock dies.

Please, think of the warlocks.





In all honesty, I find burst threat to be a much bigger deal than sustained TPS. After the first 30s of a fight I'm pretty much in the clear to just keep repeating the normal rotation. For this reason, I prefer large amounts of hit rating.

 

Dekkar

I agree with this. I find paladin sustained TPS to be more than fine, therefore I believe that hit is more useful than just some extra STR. You don't have to gem for hit (as you could put stamina gems in those slots, and EH > threat for a lot of fights), but enchanting your weapon for hit (Accuracy) is a good idea. The other nice place to get hit is your gloves. A lot of people like the 2% threat with a bit of parry, but if I weren't an engineer, I'd be putting hit on my gloves.

 

◊ Sarutobi

I don't actually like the warlocks in my raid so there's really no down-side there.

While I agree with you on the importance of hit rating, technically, in the situations where you'll be picking up multiple adds, typically the mobs will be level 81-82 and you only have a 4-5% chance to miss with spells on them. Even if you're actively trying to avoid hit rating on gear it's difficult to get below those levels. It's really only the level 83 and boss level mobs where you really need to worry about missed taunts.

(Of the fights you mentioned, only one of them has level 83/boss mobs that need to be picked up (sarth+x) and even then it's only the drakes which spawn one at a time)

 

Spleener

Just a random thing I thought I'd add after reading the OP- regarding nitro boosts, it seems that the 'blow up and throw you into the air' function doesn't work in instances. If it does, then I was absurdly lucky in the six+ months I raided with the enchant on my priest because I never saw it happen. The 'fizzle out and do nothing' mechanic still happened, but never the 'blow up' one.

 

Eradorn

So I was using Rawr today to play with some different possible upgrades, etc. and it threw back a strange result for me. It wanted me to change a large number of my Stam gems to the Agil/Stam ones.

This seems like a really strange thing. I DO use the Agil/Stam for Red slots for bonus but couldn't imagine why it would rank agil so high for me.

Any thoughts?

 

Raistlin212

It seems like there's a rough agreement/balance for the concept of Hit Rating. Don't avoid it, but don't gem for it. We get a fair amount from gear (usually). If you're short and that concerned about getting closer to 230/263 (Alliance/Horde) the weapon and glove enchants for Hit Rating will require fairly minor sacrifices if chosen. I don't think it's worth it to insure you always have 0% melee miss, but if you can get very close for a minor loss of HP/Avoidance, why not?

 

Ranjurm

If I had to guess your rawr is also looking at the threat contribution from agility's crit. Also don't forget about the armor contribution from agility.


As far as the taunt discussion:

For bosses you'll never get enough hit in a reasonable gear set to Land all HoR. On trash and Adds they are often below lvl 83 and easily capped on taunts or the RD glyph will make capping on those easy. Essentially on trash and adds you have the option to ignore hit entirely and on bosses where swaps are possible you either have two taunts available making the chances of two failures exceedingly low or you will be unable to get HoR hit capped. Additionally, for the pick up argument the chances of massive failure of 2 taunts, exorcism, AS, and Judgement are exceedingly small.

 

Jackinthegreen

On fights where picking up the add truly matters (Emalon, Auriaya, etc) I find Hunters are a good backup thanks to misdirect. The CD on it can be annoying, but it still complements our pickup abilities quite nicely. Even then, I maintain melee hit cap since every missed attack means we're that much further away from defeating something.

 

Wrathblood

For my gearset, RAWR rates AGIL as being roughly 1.5x the value of stam per point, and just barely below STAM per itemization point. AGIL, IMO, doesn't get enough credit as a tanking stat. It provides 0.9 the dodge that dodge itself does, and including the armor can, depending on the weightings, make it outright superior to dodge defensively.

Adding in the additional threat from AGIL boosting crit puts it solidly ahead of STAM in overall RAWR rating per point. If you weight threat highly, it can even pass stam per itemization point.

While deciding how to gem and gear, remember that RAWR's basic overall rating might arguably overweight armor since it helps 2 of 3 categories, and that different fights require different stats, threat vs EH vs avoidance, and one size may not fit all.

edit - typos and clarity. posting via blackberry ftl.

 

Suntanis

About gemming for hit rating, I would say there is only one exception, in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is +stam then use a Vivid Forest Emerald and about the Vindication subject... I have a ret paladin friend that is very good at his class, and basicly while they can put points into SotP instead of some prot points, they have very few options to get down to the lower tiers of Ret. It's either Vindication, Imp Might or PoJ really.
This is still dependant on if you will have a ret paladin constantly in your raid of course, but if you do, I don't think we NEED to put points into it when most ret paladins would have it in THEIR cookie cutter spec

 

Ranjurm

For sustained threat you would be better off using a str/stam gem in a red slot over a dodge/stam rather than use a hit/stam gem over a defense/stam gem.

 

Wrathblood

I agree, Suntanis. Vindication is a Ret talent, but absolutely looks like a Prot talent rather than a Ret talent. SotP looks like its becoming an attractive pickup for Ret now when it didn't used to be, but its still not like Ret is bursting at the seams with productive places to stick talent points. So, I think it very much remains to be seen whether Ret pallies will continue specing into Vindication as part of their cookie cutter build or not.

The RL will want SOMEONE to apply that debuff, but until the talent trees are a little more settled I don't think we can say who the obvious candidate to hand it out will be. IMO, its likely that Blizz will leave it so that its a bit awkward for everyone to pick up, with the job falling to whoever the RL is annoyed with and feels like gimping slightly.

However, it would make me happy if they'd swap it with HotC in the Ret tree. That way, I could take it to reach PoJ/Conv/Crusade instead of HotC (which is nearly 100% redundant if you have a ret pally), while the ret pallies can go with Imp BoM (which they're gonna take anyway) to get to HotC (which they're also gonna take anyway). If HotC could somehow be made into a 2 point talent while Im BoM and Vindication became 3 pointers, it'd be perfect, but even as is I think it would be a bit more elegant.

 

Gunn

opinions will very on what is important. I've found consistently that gearing for, Def cap, avoidance cap, hit cap, expertise cap, then STR has always worked for me. Gemming for Stamina always except when losing a socket bonus of Stamina, then I will often gem for hit/expertise or str/def depending on the color. It's worked well for me. I survive more than my Druid/Warrior/DK brothers and no one beats me in threat, as well as my DPS can start faster and I never worry about taunts.

Enchanting mostly for stamina but will do +hit on gloves and +10 stats on chest