I would like to suggest Parry/Sta as a good option now that Dodge and Parry Ratings are on a level. Parry has the added benefit that when you parry, your next attack is parry-hasted, and so can contribute to threat at a minor level, wheras Dodge is purely avoidance.
I haven't done any maths on the diminishing returns effects to both, but personally I think at present I will get more from Parry especially as most tanks have more Dodge than Parry so Dodge is closer to the diminishing returns point?
So I suppose now the reason for this post is I wanted to know if someone would be willing (egads, for each tanking class? It took me 3 hours to build this one!) to rebuild something more... accurate and dynamic, comparable to what I'm linking to here:
I would love to see some data to confirm that BoSanc still stacks with disc priest abilities in 3.2
Cathela, is there actual test data to confirm that having the Resil shoulder enchant and being below 540 defense will only decrease the size of the AD heal by .85% ? I tried testing this, but my results seem to be all over the place. I really hope your calculations are correct.
Also, great job on keeping this thread updated, I especially enjoyed the Tanking Ethos part.
Speaking purely bang for buck, Major Agility is the best enchant being worth 22 itemization points as opposed to the 16 on Titanweave and Mighty Armor.
Is there anywhere that lists the itemization points for every enchant by slot?
I would love to see some data to confirm that BoSanc still stacks with disc priest abilities in 3.2
Cathela, is there actual test data to confirm that having the Resil shoulder enchant and being below 540 defense will only decrease the size of the AD heal by .85% ? I tried testing this, but my results seem to be all over the place. I really hope your calculations are correct.
All I've got is this post, which doesn't give an authoritative source either.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
JoL no longer scales with AP/SP, but is 2% of attacker's health, similar to JoW
Imp LoH has been changed to 20% physical damage reduction rather than an armor buff
I'm fairly certain that expertise is still quite low on the scale of desired stats, both for threat and mitigation purposes, although I haven't dug into the math of it yet. What tanking stat would you place below expertise in terms of gemming/gearing?
The Nitro Boosts actually have a 3 minute cooldown, not 5 minutes. Also, I'm fairly certain the malfunction that knocks you into the air only happens in an area where flying mounts are allowed. Otherwise, the malfunction is simply failure. I've never been knocked into the air while in the old world, in an instance, or indoors.
Are you aware that the TankPoints mod does the hit-table calculations in-game, including DR? ("Open Calculator" from the TankPoints tab in the character pane.) The TP calculator also lets you play around with adding and subtracting stats and rating points to see the effect of gear changes.
The author of TankPoints also maintains this thread, which explains the DR math.
At any rate, do you mind if I link to your spreadsheet from the guide?
Heya Cathela,
I was not aware of that, nor was I using that addon. I'll pick it up ASAP. Thanks also for the link to the DR thread - I've been using it, and I will need to double-check the updated numbers, assuming they've changed this last patch.
Feel free to link that spreadsheet; however, I would love some help updating it to be more accurate and useful, if someone would care to volunteer.
In the meantime, I guess I had better fix it up as best I can...
Last edited by Viduus4 : 08/10/09 at 5:50 PM.
Reason: spelling
I'm about to start gemming up with epic gems, so there's a question I'd like cleared.
The main tank we usually use in our guild focuses mainly on EH when gearing and gemming, so I've so far taken the stance of trying to focus mostly on avoidance and/or block so we had some flexibility. I'm trying to figure out if it's time to change that approach before I spend a fortune regemming.
It's been mentioned that stamina scales better with the introduction of the new AD, and as such it has become a more valuable stat. I get why it scales better, but doesn't it simply mean that health as a whole scales better. From a burst time point of view, does this actually improve the relative value of stamina (considerably)? As far as I can see, the relative EH increase from stamina is the same. In fact, the AD design seems to mitigate one of the main risks of the avoidance approach, namely that of the risk of a freak streak of bad luck killing the tank, by giving us a "get out of jail free card".
So I have a question, I'm reading that Libram of Veracity has no internal cooldown and a lot of people are having 100% uptime from the time of proc, which i'll most likely use on threat sensitive fights, but does the Libram of Defiance have that same high uptime( i doubt highly 100% since it has less chances to proc).
I was saving emblems for some shoulders since I'm still stuck with t7.5, but if the tank libram is going to be a far better upgrade I'll definitely go with that. Anyone with the librams have any opinions/facts on it?
So I have a question, I'm reading that Libram of Veracity has no internal cooldown and a lot of people are having 100% uptime from the time of proc, which i'll most likely use on threat sensitive fights, but does the Libram of Defiance have that same high uptime( i doubt highly 100% since it has less chances to proc).
I was saving emblems for some shoulders since I'm still stuck with t7.5, but if the tank libram is going to be a far better upgrade I'll definitely go with that. Anyone with the librams have any opinions/facts on it?
I bought the Libram of Defiance and tested it for about 4 hours, average uptime is much closer to 80%. World of Logs shows about 79.5%. Using the 969 rotation, you essentially have a chance to proc it, and if you do then you get the buff which is called Evasion, then you have two more chances to refresh it before you lose the buff.
While it still makes sense to keep a BV libram around for PvProt or for your blockset to run heroics/ Algalon 10 man, using anything other than the Libram of Defiance on a boss fight in Ulduar or Coliseum is a mistake.
I'm about to start gemming up with epic gems, so there's a question I'd like cleared.
The main tank we usually use in our guild focuses mainly on EH when gearing and gemming, so I've so far taken the stance of trying to focus mostly on avoidance and/or block so we had some flexibility. I'm trying to figure out if it's time to change that approach before I spend a fortune regemming.
It's been mentioned that stamina scales better with the introduction of the new AD, and as such it has become a more valuable stat. I get why it scales better, but doesn't it simply mean that health as a whole scales better. From a burst time point of view, does this actually improve the relative value of stamina (considerably)? As far as I can see, the relative EH increase from stamina is the same. In fact, the AD design seems to mitigate one of the main risks of the avoidance approach, namely that of the risk of a freak streak of bad luck killing the tank, by giving us a "get out of jail free card".
Stamina's scaling with AD is based on the passive DR for damage inflicted sub-35%, not the cheat death proc. Stamina provides 15% more EH now than it did pre-3.2, so it definitely scales better. You're right that the value of EH in the current metagame hasn't appreciably changed, but stamina's contribution towards EH most certainly has.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
Stamina's scaling with AD is based on the passive DR for damage inflicted sub-35%, not the cheat death proc. Stamina provides 15% more EH now than it did pre-3.2, so it definitely scales better. You're right that the value of EH in the current metagame hasn't appreciably changed, but stamina's contribution towards EH most certainly has.
Since stamina scales so well, and EH is obviously our best stat, just have a simple question. With the 30 stamina gems, it's better, in terms of EH, to gem every single slot (bar a socket bonus of 15stam. Doubt that will ever happen anytime soon though) with a 30 stamina gem.
The only exception would be 1 red gem for the meta. Besides that, should we just rely on avoidance from our armor since the stats are getting so absurdly high now, and avoid gemming for e.g, 10defence 15 stamina, or 10 dodge 15 staming (bar the exception I said before) and go for straight 30 stamina gems? Since EH IS our best stat, wouldn't it be the logical choice?
Since stamina scales so well, and EH is obviously our best stat, just have a simple question. With the 30 stamina gems, it's better, in terms of EH, to gem every single slot (bar a socket bonus of 15stam. Doubt that will ever happen anytime soon though) with a 30 stamina gem.
The only exception would be 1 red gem for the meta. Besides that, should we just rely on avoidance from our armor since the stats are getting so absurdly high now, and avoid gemming for e.g, 10defence 15 stamina, or 10 dodge 15 staming (bar the exception I said before) and go for straight 30 stamina gems? Since EH IS our best stat, wouldn't it be the logical choice?
There's always a certain limit, it really depends on what kind of content you're doing. For most of the hard modes in Ulduar EH is definitely king, but for the normal modes there's definitely a point where you have plenty of health to survive anything thrown at you and might as well start working on your avoidance.
There's no hard rule to follow for this though, it really depends on your preferences. I'd personally aim for enough EH where you can basically always survive 4+ hard hits without healing, or one particularly damaging special (Say, Fusion Punch) and another melee swing without healing. After that point you're probably better off with avoidance, though that's a lot of EH that you need to cover.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I have read over this guide, but calculators like Rawr suggest very different gear, mostly opting for more STR and armor reducing my dodge/parry/block/block value
I have read over this guide, but calculators like Rawr suggest very different gear, mostly opting for more STR and armor reducing my dodge/parry/block/block value
Is the calculator basically throwing out all my old gear, first trying to achieve 540 def? and then working on other values?
Maybe I am still thinking as an old BC pally, as str now add's to threat / block value, but am I on the right path?
Thanks
Couple things working against Rawr:
Rawr wasn't really built for players still leveling up
By default, Rawr gives heavy weight to Threat - you can scale this down in the options though, and I recommend you do.
Rawr Prot Pally also hasn't been updated for 3.2
I will say however that Rawr may be accidentally on the right path for you...block value is awesome for heroics and Naxx now, so if you have the option to stack that, go for it.
At your stage, I wouldn't fuss too much about optimal gearing. Get 535/540 defense for heroics/raids, then grab as many shiny epics as you can. When the dust settles, use Rawr to help put it all together.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
If you're levelling, then I'd recommend stacking copious amounts of str. Dungeons while levelling are a joke, even with an offspec healer (moonkin, ele shaman, spriest, etc) healing you. Don't worry about being uncrittable for anything pre-heroics / Naxx, just focus on stacking as much damage as possible to level fast.
That's not really answering your question though, so if for whatever reason you are concerned with maximising your stats etc pre-80, then just keep in mind the gearing priority list. Uncrittable > unhittable > stam/avoidance. Being unhittable, or block capped, is very useful for the majority of content still (most things pre-Maly / Sarth+3), so once you've got enough defense, it's definitely worth going for. Maintankadin has some great info and resources for beginners and prot pallies that are still levelling too.
A latent appliance fetishist is someone who refuses to admit to his or herself that sexual gratification can only be achieved through the use of machines.
- L. Ron Hoover
I find that the endless mana potion, which you can make with alchemy, is very usefull on trash and in heroics.
I believe i'll keep using the potion long after the trinket has been replaced, which in the long run makes it an 'Temporary perk' which is just as good as the trinket.
Thanks for the error-catches and additions; I think I've hit most of them but I'm going to check again to make sure.
Meanwhile, I've added the last remaining section, on UI design in Part 2 of the manual. This is really just a list of useful tanking mods. If anyone has other mods to suggest adding, post here. What I'm interested in is tanking-specific mods (e.g., TankPoints), and mods that address things particularly important to tanks (e.g., threat meters). I'm not interested in general-purpose mods like hotbars, unitframes, etc, and I'm not planning to include every mod under the sun, just the one or two best or most popular mods for a particular purpose. (I've got PowerAuras in the list right now, which is really more of a general-purpose mod, so I might take that out.)
Also, if there are any particularly tanking-useful macros people like and want to throw out, I may add some of those too. (The really crucial one in the past was the RD macro, but that's unnecessary now, and I can't think of any "must have" tanking macros at the moment.)
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
It is similar to PowerAuras, so you may or may not want to mention it, but I have found NeedToKnow very lightweight and simple to set up mod. I use it to track my JotJ, JoL/W uptime and my SoCorr stacks on whatever mob I'm tanking and my focus target. I also like Quartz for enemy cast bars as it is more flexible then the default bar and can make interrupting easier.
08/06/09, 9:27 AM
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