I'm finally getting around to updating my prot spec to pick up DS/DG (I know I should have done it a long time ago), but it gives me an opportunity to reconsider my ret talents as well. Most of my tanking is off tank in ICC 10 (other than 5-man heroics), but I've found myself main tanking a bit more lately. Currently I am 5/5 in Conviction and 3/3 in Crusade. Should I dump Conviction for Vindication and Pursuit of Justice (I currently enchant tuskar's vitality to boots)? Should I dump Conviction and Crusade for Seals of the Pure and some points in reckoning? Per Cathela's field manual, I do stack a fair bit of agility; not sure if that should factor into my decision.
-- EDIT --
I've keep searching and found an informative post at maintankadin which suggests that Crusade > SotP > Reckoning > Conviction for DUH mobs and SotP > Crusade > reckoning > Conviction for Non-DUH mobs from a pure TPS perspective.
If you've got 53 in prot, you can't really have SotP and Crusade at the same time, so I think I'm going to stick with the ret tree and Crusade; however, I am going to drop 3 points from Conviction and pick up Vindication and Seal of Command.
On a personal note, I would always include Seal of Command for being a proper pick up AoE tank and Pursuit of Justice since the run speed simply invaluable. You gain stamina and run speed from enchanting 22 stamina instead of Tuskarrs while you gain TPS talents; in a realistic raiding environment survivability is bound to be be the clear better choice. To put it in numbers, you gain 7 stamina and 7(,5?)% faster running at the loss of, give or take, the other tank gloating at you for barely being able to keep up.
In the scenario that you take SoCom, PoJ and Vindication, you are left with 3 points. I don't know if the talent analyses you posted is on a per point (most likely) or per maxed out talent, but in ICC this is irrelevant: nearly all mobs are undead and the ones that aren't make excellent applications for SoCom (not improved by SotP). There might be some exceptions I'm missing off the top of my head, but unless you keep a second spec for something very specific this is where you'll want to go. I personally don't see a reasonable trade-off that would allow for points in Conviction: Vindication is probably the best way to debuff bosses' AP and SoCom/PoJ were outlined above.As for Reckoning; costs a lot of points for a poor TPS talent that can induce parry gibs on select mobs. Don't get it.
The point distribution in Ret is mostly dictated by whether or not you regularly raid with imp. AP ret/warrior or in very exceptional cases with someone to apply the +3% crit debuff. Which you pick is largely irrelevant except for 10mans where you're more likely to miss out on some of the more pertinent buffs. It should be noted that contrary to what my current spec suggests, 2/2 imp. Judgements is mostly a waste of points over 1/2 due to our rotation. My current imp BoM spec neglected to put an extra point in Benediction for the sake of getting a judgement up faster after the first one missed, or whatever.
On a more philosophical note, despite the garbage state our single target TPS is in, the only remote contestants for threat are fury warriors, frost DKs without subversion and other tanks. Before you even think about giving up any survivability for threat, you should remember that almost any threat complication can be sorted with HoSalv or picking up with SoCom for more burst threat. Min/maxing your DPS/TPS is good, but it should stop whenever you lose even minor survability.
Should I dump Conviction for Vindication and Pursuit of Justice (I currently enchant tuskar's vitality to boots)?
Thecks TPS analysis is not his only words of wisdom for talent choices. He makes a strong case Vindication. 46 AP may seem like nothing, but it turns out to be a significant decrease in incoming damage. Maintankadin • View topic - 3.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide
RE: PoJ : It's an odd way of thinking about it, but PoJ scales as a threat talent based on the amount of movement in a fight. For 'Stand and tank' type fights, PoJ isnt getting you anything, but for any fight with movement PoJ works for tanks just like it does for DPS. It's a DPS ( and therefore TPS ) increase anytime you arrive at the new position earlier. Less time spent moving means more time spent generating threat. Also freeing you up for more Stam in boots means more survivability where threat has not been a huge issue for most of us. So I would definitely recommend Vindication+PoJ instead of Conviction.
For 'Stand and tank' type fights, PoJ isnt getting you anything, but for any fight with movement PoJ works for tanks just like it does for DPS. It's a DPS ( and therefore TPS ) increase anytime you arrive at the new position earlier. Less time spent moving means more time spent generating threat. Also freeing you up for more Stam in boots means more survivability where threat has not been a huge issue for most of us. So I would definitely recommend Vindication+PoJ instead of Conviction.
As a small addendum/expansion to this concept is the fact that PoJ's value may decrease for the Prot paladin when compared to another melee dps due to the fact that we have a couple instant ranged attacks that could be used while closing the gap.
The difference is probably pretty minimal and will of course be subject to the context of the individual battle, but if the paladin is able to HoR for damage (i.e. target not targeting the paladin at range), throw AS and possibly toss out a holy wrath while closing the gap then PoJ's value is pretty low still.
I'm not arguing that PoJ is a weak talent by any means since often times the stars do not align like in the above situation. I just wanted to clarify that we're not always limited like the melee DPS classes in terms of tools available to use at range. Of course all the above are not regular substitutions in the typical 96969 so getting to the target sooner and establishing the rotation will always be an increase to TPS in a fight. The increase just might not be as dramatic as the increase a melee dps sees in their damage when they are able to get close to a mobile mob.
As a small addendum/expansion to this concept is the fact that PoJ's value may decrease for the Prot paladin when compared to another melee dps due to the fact that we have a couple instant ranged attacks that could be used while closing the gap.
Movement Speed's value is actually increased as a tank, because the consequences of you reaching your target in time (or not) are in several situations much more binary than with DPS. If a DPS gets to a target slowly, they do less DPS. If a tank does it, he risks having the target gib someone. Fights like Thorim P1, Sarth3D whelp duty, and Valithria all place a very heavy emphasis on rapid movement and add pickup. Even if people aren't being gibbed, having the tank get to the add faster allows for a higher level of burst damage from players. So while it may not have a large impact on your own personal DPS, it can be a substantial increase in raid DPS.
The same is true for bosses that need to be moved. The faster you can drag the boss out of a shadow trap, vortex, choking gas vial, etc, the better for DPS.
PoJ is a mandatory tanking talent, unless you plan to change your tanking spec on a per boss basis. There's no real way to get around that.
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Movement Speed's value is actually increased as a tank, because the consequences of you reaching your target in time (or not) are in several situations much more binary than with DPS.
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The same is true for bosses that need to be moved. The faster you can drag the boss out of a shadow trap, vortex, choking gas vial, etc, the better for DPS.
PoJ is a mandatory tanking talent, unless you plan to change your tanking spec on a per boss basis. There's no real way to get around that.
While I don't disagree with you entirely, I think you missed my point. I was approaching the issue from a "TPS-centric" position. With the ranged abilities we have at our disposal, there are many cases where the difference of your being within melee range of your target and being 10-20 yards away and running towards your target are relatively low.
As for the utility of PoJ in fights like Thorim P1 and Sarth3D, I have mixed thoughts. Depending on what you're doing in the Thorim fight, PoJ can go either way. In the hallway it can be useful due to the amount of ground you have to cover, in the arena I found myself limited to the circle in the middle of the floor and the adds would come to me.
As for Sarth3D, keeping adds under control was more a matter of knowing when timers were nearing their expiration and being in place shortly before that. The unluckly lava wave of course complicated things, but being able to lay a well-timed consecrate for whelps and having two ranged taunts reduced PoJ's value in the fight to the level of convenience rather than necessity.
To reiterate, I will always pick up PoJ, but to say that it's a mandatory tanking talent I feel is a bit of an overstatement. Until we see more untauntable bosses/adds, PoJ's utility will be overshadowed by HoR/AS/HR/RD in terms of getting the mob at range to stick to you.
I can assure you that you won't keep agro from anyone if you're just relying on HoR and AS so you will have to be in melee range if you're going to get anything done. As such, I don't see how PoJ's value is disputable in a situation where your distance minus the distance you cover from a target is longer than the target will cover in 3 seconds, which is just about any fight with adds.
Far more valuable than this "more threat, never bad" component, its value as a general purpose "you get from A to B faster" is paramount on numerous fights. The only fight where moving faster does not help on encounter mechanics is Saurfang, aside from him every single boss encounter mechanics involve movement. From minor situational uses, like getting in a better Divine Sacrifice spot on BQL or manoeuvring Marrowgar in a suitable position after bonestorm, to crucial fight mechanics like defile on Lich King and tank switches on Sindragosa.
While the point that we have ranged abilities is correct, it's pretty much irrelevant in a PoJ discussion.
The point I should have been making, which is in agreement with both your and Mex's thoughts is that yes, PoJ will always be an increase to your threat potential, but that increase can vary significantly by context. I was seeking to avoid lumping PoJ in with other threat boosting talents such as 1HWS which has a pretty static effect on one's threat output.
Effectively modeling a theoretical ROI for average threat gained per point invested in PoJ is nearly impossible, but it's safe to say that the ROI is always positive.
I'm surprised that you consider Paladins to have an abundance of useful ranged threat abilities, Sahas. HoR only actually adds threat if the target isn't currently targeting you, which leaves you with just Avenger Shield which has a 30 second cooldown. I guess technically you could add Exo as well, but with its mid-length cast time, its really not something you can cast on the run.
By comparison, Warriors have Heroic Throw and no much else, but with their abundance of gap closers likely won't many ranged abilities in this situation anyway. Ferals have FFF which has a 6 second cooldown making it somewhat superior to paladin ranged abilities, and DKs have a buffet of abilities to choose from, ranging from DnD to Deathcoil to IT to HB (for Frost, anyway) and probably other stuff I'm forgetting as well.
Contrary to your point, I think one could make a case that paladins, though probably having the best ranged taunts, in fact have the worst ranged threat generating abilities, especially if you assume movement is required. We learned from painful experience that while it was possible for me to kite the oozes on Rotface, virtually any other tank made life easier (we didn't have a warrior tank then).
Perhaps "abundance" is too strong of a word. I agree with your comparison of our tool kit to the other classes. When I mentioned HoR it was in the context of all the stars aligning and the mob not currently targeting the paladin. A pretty large caveat I'll admit.
In my initial response several posts back I had a pretty specific scenario in mind where aggro had switched, the target was undead, AS was off cooldown and the gap to close was able to be covered within 3 GCD's (4 if the target happened to be under 20% I suppose). In a situation like that, PoJ's value would not shine as bright since you could just rattle off the various situational abilities while you got back into melee range. That's what I was referring to when the "stars aligned" and in truth, it was a pretty unlikely scenario to be basing my claims upon.
My apologies for taking us down this rabbit trail, but your (Wrath, Mod, Mex) input has been very valuable to me.
We learned from painful experience that while it was possible for me to kite the oozes on Rotface, virtually any other tank made life easier (we didn't have a warrior tank then).
I'm somewhat surprised by that statement. Does a druid spamming faerie fire really generate that much threat? I have to put some work into kiting oozes, but it never seemed that difficult unless you have multiples of them running around.
I'm somewhat surprised by that statement. Does a druid spamming faerie fire really generate that much threat? I have to put some work into kiting oozes, but it never seemed that difficult unless you have multiples of them running around.
I agree. Taunt, drop consecrate to kite them over. Maybe inch into range and judge. Avenger's shield to help get initial aggro and even exorcism if you have a lead. Hand of Freedom works great for getting across slime. A DK can generate more ranged threat (icy touch spam), but I've never had trouble kiting the slimes as a pally once I got initial aggro.
Somewhat depends on your latency, I suppose. If you're confident about your delay you can easily judge while you kite (Judgement of Righteousness hits considerably harder than Vengeance sans stacks), which eliminates any threat issues you might have. As long as your holy paladins took off Righteous Fury, anyway.
Actually you have to be careful about judging, since their melee range seems to be further than judgement range. I usually just judge once right after I taunt when they spawn and they're still thinking about who they are and what they should be doing. After that it's AS and Exo on CD (PoJ and HoF give you plenty of room to stand and cast whenever you need to) and cast consecrate whenever it's convenient.
Based on kiting experience ever since Rotface hit live realms, no, their melee range is not further than your judgement range, unless you have high latency. It's pretty overkill considering it's just healing threat you need to outdo, but it does have the added benefit of keeping divine plea up. The catch is that if you stay close enough to judge, odds are you'll find yourself in melee range when you get vile gas'd on heroic. Cancelaura'd bubble works great for that occasion, though.
On a more general note, paladins have an easy enough time (just like any other tank, really) picking up oozes but we have the unique ability to not only get through slime pools on our own on heroic, but also the ability to control the cleansing. In practise it's probably best to put your tank with the most situational awareness on kiting duty, whatever his class is.
Druids don't really put out a lot of ranged threat with FFF, but its enough and its got a short cool down which is nice. Also, with shifting into travel-form they have a real advantage in mobility. Also, perhaps its latency, but the first week at least, the big oozes' melee range was shorter than Judgment range but only just barely, and there was little room for error. It required a good bit of practice to consistently judge and get away safely.
Druids don't really put out a lot of ranged threat with FFF, but its enough and its got a short cool down which is nice. Also, with shifting into travel-form they have a real advantage in mobility. Also, perhaps its latency, but the first week at least, the big oozes' melee range was shorter than Judgment range but only just barely, and there was little room for error. It required a good bit of practice to consistently judge and get away safely.
You cannot go travel form indoors. They do, however, get 130% movement speed in cat form.
Based on kiting experience ever since Rotface hit live realms, no, their melee range is not further than your judgement range, unless you have high latency. It's pretty overkill considering it's just healing threat you need to outdo, but it does have the added benefit of keeping divine plea up. The catch is that if you stay close enough to judge, odds are you'll find yourself in melee range when you get vile gas'd on heroic. Cancelaura'd bubble works great for that occasion, though.
On a more general note, paladins have an easy enough time (just like any other tank, really) picking up oozes but we have the unique ability to not only get through slime pools on our own on heroic, but also the ability to control the cleansing. In practise it's probably best to put your tank with the most situational awareness on kiting duty, whatever his class is.
Pretty much this. We're one of the best classes for slimes just due to our arsenal of abilities:
-PoJ for faster movement
-Judgement and AS for ranged threat (make sure to use SoRighteousness for the double seal proc!)
-Consecration for extra threat as you kite
-BoF to get through ooze slicks
-A taunt that does actual damage, for those "accidental" Big Oozes
-Bubble and Bubblewall in case you get Vile Gassed into Big Ooze melee range
-AD to save you if it happens again
-Cleanse to control ooze rates
Threat on the oozes is pretty trivial as well. They don't attack for a few seconds after they spawn, so you can do the following:
-HoR on spawn
-ShoR, start running
-Judge as you're running out to range
-AS at range (by this point the ooze should be active)
-Drop Consecration in the path
That gives you enough of a threat lead to last the full duration of the ooze, in my experience. I still slip back into Judgement range on occasion to refresh Divine Plea, but even that's not usually necessary. If it is, try and time it for right after a Vile Gas cast, so that you're in no danger of being stuck next to the ooze. Also note that you can keep moving in between ticks of the vile gas.
Druids don't really put out a lot of ranged threat with FFF, but its enough and its got a short cool down which is nice. Also, with shifting into travel-form they have a real advantage in mobility. Also, perhaps its latency, but the first week at least, the big oozes' melee range was shorter than Judgment range but only just barely, and there was little room for error. It required a good bit of practice to consistently judge and get away safely.
A FFF actually causes more threat then the initial hit from a Lacerate.
(Although the 5-stack obviously generates more tps over time.)
Thats why druid tanks keep it in their rotation even on targets they already have agro on.
Movement Speed's value is actually increased as a tank, because the consequences of you reaching your target in time (or not) are in several situations much more binary than with DPS. If a DPS gets to a target slowly, they do less DPS. If a tank does it, he risks having the target gib someone. Fights like Thorim P1, Sarth3D whelp duty, and Valithria all place a very heavy emphasis on rapid movement and add pickup. Even if people aren't being gibbed, having the tank get to the add faster allows for a higher level of burst damage from players. So while it may not have a large impact on your own personal DPS, it can be a substantial increase in raid DPS.
The same is true for bosses that need to be moved. The faster you can drag the boss out of a shadow trap, vortex, choking gas vial, etc, the better for DPS.
PoJ is a mandatory tanking talent, unless you plan to change your tanking spec on a per boss basis. There's no real way to get around that.
Except the boot enchant? Those points are much better spent on things like Conviction and Vindication. The difference between 2/2 in PoJ and Tuskarr's Vitality is 6%-- not a huge difference when you can have points in more viable skills as a tank.
Thecks TPS analysis is not his only words of wisdom for talent choices. He makes a strong case Vindication. 46 AP may seem like nothing, but it turns out to be a significant decrease in incoming damage.
To clarify and give correct information, it's not 46 AP. It's 574 AP at rank 2 and level 80. Either way, the point stands that it's really not a negotiable talent unless you ALWAYS have someone putting up an equal AP reduction for you.
The information about the Engineering boot enchant is incorrect. When they backfire, there is a 100% chance to get launched into the air if and ONLY if flying mounts are allowed where you are. If this does occur, there is a small chance that you will never receive the parachute buff, but this doesn't matter unless you're tanking for a group quest outdoors. If the boots malfunction when you are NOT in an area where flying mounts are allowed, then the "malfunction" will do absolutely nothing, besides wasting your 3 min CD.
I have used the Nitro Boost enchant for about half a year and never had a single malfunction inside an instance (neither of the 'nothing happens' nor the 'launch to the sky' variety). The malfunction occurs relativley often outside of instances, but I've yet to experience the enchant not working inside an instance.
04/13/10, 5:11 PM
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