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Old 04/23/09, 6:27 PM   #1111
 promdates
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Turalyon
It's 353 block value with Redoubt, so it's a 104bv drop from the current libram we use. Although, this one should be up 98-100% of the time, while the current is only up 62.5% of the time.


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Old 04/23/09, 7:54 PM   #1112
aasimar
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sargeras
Are any paladins having a hard time tanking in Ulduar?

I've never had much of a problem, and I'm in very decent gear, but when we do 25 man Uld now...bosses are hitting me for over 20,000+...terrifically fast. And even though I have tons of avoidance, my healers are telling me I get hit too hard in comparison to our Warrior and DK tank.

Ive talked to other paladins who say my gear and stats are fine. (The World of Warcraft Armory)

What am I doing wrong?

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Old 04/23/09, 8:14 PM   #1113
Maelstrom
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Terenas (EU)
I'm having zero problems tanking Ulduar25 aasimar. Your healers are probably biased, or your warrior isn't keeping up demo shout when he's not tanking the boss (We generally have our DPS warrior do this.). Ulduar 25 bosses will hit a tank for 20K quite comfortably, class is fairly irrelevant. If your healers are having trouble keeping a tank up through fairly slow but heavy swings, they probably don't have proper assignments. On XT002 for example, 2-3 healers on the MT is more than enough as long as they dont deviate from their task and cross heal. This isn't Naxx, they need discipline.

It's hard to say much more really without a WWS to look at.

Gear notes:

Change the 30 stamina shoulder enchant to the defence enchant from hodir. It's 20 item points of stamina versus 35 item points of defense and dodge (With the exalted one). This will also buff your avoidance slightly.

Your overall avoidance is a little low, this is probably a combination of having a few 10man pieces and block rating items. This obviously can't be helped if different items won't drop for you though. That said stamnina is basically king when it comes to progression tanking. Being able to survive two high-end damage swings from a boss is gold compared to praying you dodge the next attack.

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Old 04/23/09, 8:28 PM   #1114
aasimar
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sargeras
I am not yet exalted with Hodir...should I still use the Honored one?

The Shield...I have *NEVER* seen another shield drop...Ever.

The helmet, I like.... Errrr...Hold on, I am looking at my Stats on the armory. They are not correct.

My Avoidance is:

23.65% Dodge
18.56% Parry
20.24% Shield Block

The Armory isn't updating my talents...please advise me further based on this.

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Old 04/23/09, 9:03 PM   #1115
Zarahtra
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
I'd say your stats are fine. I'd recommend switching from Sanctified Battle to Crusade and taking 3 points out of Conviction and 1 out of imp Judgement and putting in Divinity. You went avoidance more than me and your gear seems fine with that way(I'm assuming you're MTing mostly, else SBV way will serve you better in OT role). Well yeah your gear is fine(the belt is probably your weakest spot I'd say) but you really shouldn't be facing a lot of issues, or at least not any more than tanks of other classes.

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Old 04/23/09, 9:07 PM   #1116
Maelstrom
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Terenas (EU)
Ah I see the armory bugs persist.

That avoidance is perfectly fine for Ulduar 25, and counting talents your stamina should be alright too. Really there's nothing you seem to be doing wrong, you even have the divine plea glyph (I love that thing.). The honoured shoulder enchant is fine too, the extra flexibility from the defense allows for more stamina from gems and such too. It will also reduce your reliance on [Repelling Charge].

Again, not much else I can say without a WWS or equivalent. But your gear seems fine for Ulduar25 really. If you want to put the effort in, [Indestructible Potion] will cut down your damage intake for 2 minutes. But honestly I'd say the issue lies with your healers who are trying to deflect blame from them sucking onto your class.

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Old 04/23/09, 9:19 PM   #1117
aasimar
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sargeras
Alright. I may experiment with Divinity... I know I have a few pieces of bad gear, but. I dont know... I main tank and off tank, depending.

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Old 04/24/09, 12:12 AM   #1118
Qalor
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by aasimar View Post
Are any paladins having a hard time tanking in Ulduar?

I've never had much of a problem, and I'm in very decent gear, but when we do 25 man Uld now...bosses are hitting me for over 20,000+...terrifically fast. And even though I have tons of avoidance, my healers are telling me I get hit too hard in comparison to our Warrior and DK tank.

Ive talked to other paladins who say my gear and stats are fine. (The World of Warcraft Armory)

What am I doing wrong?
I can say that my healers have all said they prefer to heal me than our Warrior tank. The combination of Divinity, me keeping SS up on myself, and the fact that I take smaller, consistent hits rather than spiky hits makes them happier.

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Old 04/24/09, 12:58 AM   #1119
 forostie
Not Aboriginal
 
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Foro
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
My only concerns in Ulduar is AoE threat over DKs, other than that I am able to tank almost every boss (Vezax I haven't tried, we cheese it with a Druid using catform sprint). Single target Paladin threat is the best by far.

For Thorim we have come across a few difficulties. Our DK pulls massive amounts of threat over me with his DoTs/Pestilence/UB/Death and Decay whereas my Ret aura/Consecrate/HotR doesn't cut it. I end up just RDing everything off him to make it easier for AoE while getting ToT spammed on me while the DK picks up any loose adds. It would be nice if Consecrate had an extra +threat modifier but I can also see this being very overpowered for single target threat.

Brutal case of wrong place, wrong time

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Old 04/24/09, 1:57 AM   #1120
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by Qalor View Post
The combination of Divinity, me keeping SS up on myself, and the fact that I take smaller, consistent hits rather than spiky hits makes them happier.
Those two (buffed SS talents + full Divinity) are perhaps what people are missing when they have issues with Pally tanking. The only bad things are no multi-target tanking debuff (the 20% slow is single target, you could Judge tab Judge to get it on two) and no Last Stand.

Originally Posted by forostie View Post
It would be nice if Consecrate had an extra +threat modifier but I can also see this being very overpowered for single target threat.
Adding threat to Cons may mess up Ret Pallies, however putting that ability in an existing talent could work.

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Old 04/24/09, 2:04 AM   #1121
 forostie
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Foro
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Adding threat to Cons may mess up Ret Pallies, however putting that ability in an existing talent could work.
I agree with the talent part, though having said that I've never seen a Pink bar register anywhere close to the top with even on nuke fights like Vezax. Either way I believe something should be done about our AoE threat - DKs are just too powerful in this regard.

Brutal case of wrong place, wrong time

"fric sleeps with the world and has nothing, zyla gets laid once last year and it nearly kills him" - Birdemani, 2012

"Put a washcloth in her mouth and piss on her face" - Fric, 2013

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Old 04/24/09, 4:31 PM   #1122
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Monk
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
and no Last Stand.
Personally between the glyph and taking Imp Lay on Hands, I think we get the better end of the deal where I can pop LOH once a pull if I have to. Just a good oh sh*t button to have.

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Old 04/24/09, 5:36 PM   #1123
SeanDamnit
Piston Honda
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
...
If you want to put the effort in, [Indestructible Potion] will cut down your damage intake for 2 minutes...
Just a quick, and probably obvious note: you can pop 1 [Indestructible Potion] just before you pull and are in combat, that way you are able to chug another during combat giving you 4 minutes or so of uptime.

I chain chug these things all the time. They are pretty cheap, and offer a good chunk of mitigation.

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Old 04/25/09, 2:43 PM   #1124
Petrus
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
I've been saving up some Indestructible Potions for use in Ulduar, and you're right. They're very handy.

As for our librams, [Libram of the Sacred Shield] is 353 BV with 100% uptime as opposed to [Libram of Obstruction]'s 457 with 55% uptime (assuming ideal situation where you judge every 9 seconds), meaning it averages 254 BV. It's essentially 100 BV increase on average.

Depending on your block chance, there is a certain point where Libram of Obstruction is a better choice for AoE tanking. If you're tanking enough mobs that Holy Shield isn't likely to last 5 seconds (meaning the buff falls off when HS runs out of charges), then LoO is a better choice for more uptime and thus more mitigation (because it won't fall off when HS runs out).

Napkin math, assuming a 60% block chance (which is about what I have when I wear my block/bv set which has roughly 30% block chance plus HS's 30%) and a mob swing timer of 2ish seconds:

Each mob has 5 chances to remove a charge of holy shield before the buff is renewed. 3 of these will more than likely do so, so in a worst-case scenario, 3 charges are removed in 6 seconds (because of the 2ish second swing timer). 2 mobs will remove 6 charges in 6 seconds, and a third mob will bump it up to 9 in 6 seconds, which is one more than HS actually has charges. Thus, if you're tanking 3+ with short swing timers (<=2sec) and you're in a block set with somewhere around 60% block chance, you may want to consider Libram of Obstruction for more mitigation when AoEtanking because LotSS won't last as long.

Please PLEASE tell me if I'm wrong or way off base with that math, but I think it's roughly accurate. I don't do much napkin math, though, so someone who is more familiar with it and can do more accurate calculations should probably check it.

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Old 04/25/09, 3:00 PM   #1125
Zarahtra
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
I calculated this thing over on wowhead at comment section of LotSS(Artharas) and Pallidum came with math from another direction on this matter.

It will take ~6 mob with a swing time of 2.4(debuffed) for LotSS to become worse than LoO. This is assuming the paladin has 50% avoidance(which I have raid buffed in SBV set).

So no your math isn't totally accurate(well you assume faster attack speed than most mobs use debuffed and less avoidance) but it is correct that LoO still can come infront of LotSS on some occasions such as heavy multimob situation and there's also the occasion when you're doing your læl dps in a phase not requiring you to tank hence you won't use Holy Shield.
On another hand, with LotSS you can do exorcism instead of judgement without loosing out on Libram's SBV. In the end I dare say LotSS will outperform LoO in far most situations.

Last edited by Zarahtra : 04/25/09 at 3:23 PM.

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