Elitist Jerks The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK)

06/15/09, 10:22 AM   #1306
Jackinthegreen
Banned

Twisting Nether
 Originally Posted by jarelie I would say Blood Draining kills you sometimes instead of saving your life; but there has been a huge discussion about it in previous pages. According to rawr's latest version; Blade ward is on par with Mongoose by means of threat and avoidance; and alot more expensive. Theck's matlab TPS analysis shows ( Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) ) accuracy is the best enchant in terms of tps. Considering you have 177 hit only; it would be a huge boost to your tps; keep in mind it doesnt benefit you for avoidance and mitigation though.
Accuracy is also fairly expensive though. One of the best "enchants" for your money is the Titanium Weapon Chain. 28 hit outshines the accuracy, but the tradeoff is 50% less chance to be disarmed. It doesn't stack with Pursuit of Justice, but is nevertheless useful.

If you want avoidance and a bit of mitigation, then the 26 agility enchant is the way to go.

06/15/09, 1:01 PM   #1307
qixxin
Glass Joe

 Originally Posted by Cathela If my math is correct, at 15% parry (i.e., 5% base + 5% talent + 5% from defense), the reduction factor for additional parry is 84.71%.
Isn't base parry and talents off the DM?

Anyway, after my post the other day, I decided to try and calculate exactly when it best to start stacking parry and to what degree. I decided to write a small program to do the maths for me and used the following C# function to calculate avoidance:
private double calcAvoidance(double dodgerate, double parryrate, double defrate, double magility)
{
double Ad = 1 / (0.011347 + (0.956 / ((dodgerate / 39.35) + (defrate / 122.9625) + (magility * 0.0192))));
double Ap = 1 / (0.021275 + (0.956 / ((parryrate / 49.18499) + (defrate / 122.9625))));
double Am = 1 / (0.0625 + (0.956 / (defrate / 122.9625)));
return Ad + Ap + Am + 25;
}
Using this program I made it draw some graphs for me. The following best summarises my findings:
[Side note: the 62.7 agility is considered 'base' +agility in a raid environment as it is a +22 leg enchant, MotW and kings, with 90 base agility]
[Edit: I just wanted to point out the insane scale used in the graph, practically speaking, most players will find themselves where dodge is always better than parry, especially when you consider that you will probably pick up some parry on gear that was an upgrade for you ]
The graph plots parry rating against dodge rating, and shows when parry rating is better than dodge rating. As you can see, there is a point at which parry becomes viable (henceforth referred to as the critical point), after which dodge and parry should be stacked at a fixed ratio. From my other data, I observed that defence rating shifted the critical point to the right (making dodge stacking more effective) and agility shifted it to the left, and then after a few data sets I was able to determine that the formula for the critical point is:

$\text{Critical Point}=391.56+0.3508\times\text{Defence rating}-0.7555\times\text{Agility}$

I was then able to determine that the best ratio to stack dodge and parry is 1.677 dodge rating per 1 parry rating (roughly your dodge should be 2/3 more than parry).

As always, these results should be taken with a pinch of salt, as a change in buffs or defence rating will make you 'sub-optimal' again.
Also, if anyone would like to check my maths I would appreciate it, a fresh set of eyes always makes it easier

As a final thought, I would like to point out that this comparison is stacking dodge and parry only, I think it would be interesting to see if stacking dodge and defence provides better mitigation that dodge and parry (as defence shifts the critical point so dodge is better than parry). I will try this another day and post if I find out anything interesting.

Last edited by qixxin : 06/17/09 at 9:15 PM.

06/15/09, 1:20 PM   #1308
Wrathblood
Don Flamenco

Drenden
 Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen Accuracy is also fairly expensive though. One of the best "enchants" for your money is the Titanium Weapon Chain. 28 hit outshines the accuracy, but the tradeoff is 50% less chance to be disarmed. It doesn't stack with Pursuit of Justice, but is nevertheless useful. If you want avoidance and a bit of mitigation, then the 26 agility enchant is the way to go.
While I agree that +AGIL is an overall fine enchant, providing a nice mix of avoidance, threat and even a little mitigation (especially since I still feel most pally tanks underestimate the overall benefit of AGIL), I am surprised that no one mentions the still amazing Mongoose and its not listed as an option in the OP. Sure, its a BC enchant, but IMO its clearly superior to +AGIL.

Assuming 1 ppm, in theory that's worth +30 AGIL. Obviously since it comes in big spikes at a time, it has the drawbacks of being both harder hit by DR than +26 AGIL and being slightly erratic which is the bane of most tanks. Still, by my math even with the harder DR hit it still provides slightly more avoidance than +AGIL while getting the appropriate boost to armor. The Mongoose proc also provides very slightly more threat, averaged over time, than +AGIL plus it kicks in the +2% attack speed bonus. The attack speed haste is of minimal value for a paladin tank since it only affects autoattacks and your extra SoV procs (yippee) but its still better than absolutely nothing and extends the gap very slightly.

According to RAWR (2.2.5, I need to update), with my gear against an Ulduar boss swinging for 80k (unmitigated) and with my standard raid buffs, Mongoose drops my incoming dps by 12 and also produces 16 more tps over a +26 AGIL enchant. Obviously YMMV, but that's a pretty decent upgrade.

06/15/09, 2:59 PM   #1309
Raistlin212
Von Kaiser

Zangarmarsh
 Originally Posted by Jebraltar Perhaps split the basics off into a think-tank article and leave the topic for advanced discussion? (Particularly since the basics tend to remain mostly constant, but advanced play changes with almost every hotfix.)
For what it's worth - I love the guide in its current form. Perhaps some create use of a spoiler tag would help, or external linking to a few non-essential items could shrink it down. But, I love having a comprehensive guide, and this thread is on my daily news links just because it's so informative and up to date. If you decide to do a complete reformat and clean up then I understand, but please don't reduce this guide's size just for the sake of making it smaller. Its thoroughness is its best attribute.

06/15/09, 5:38 PM   #1310
Dulkal
Glass Joe

Frostmane (EU)
 Originally Posted by Raistlin212 For what it's worth - I love the guide in its current form. Perhaps some create use of a spoiler tag would help, or external linking to a few non-essential items could shrink it down. But, I love having a comprehensive guide, and this thread is on my daily news links just because it's so informative and up to date. If you decide to do a complete reformat and clean up then I understand, but please don't reduce this guide's size just for the sake of making it smaller. Its thoroughness is its best attribute.
Seconded.

An index would be awesome though

An it's definitely think-tank worthy IMO. No one says you have to stop working on it just because its in the TT

06/15/09, 5:51 PM   #1311
Cathela
Still Bald Bull

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by qixxin Isn't base parry and talents off the DM?
Right. Just the 5% parry you get from crit-immunity already pushes your marginal return on additional parry down to ~85% (assuming I'm doing the math correctly, which I may not be.)

Your chart disagrees with my results, but I'm not super-confident in my stuff. Even so, I don't see any realistic way you're going to find gear that gives you 586 dodge rating without any parry rating at all, except for temporary conditions with trinkets and such (per Mex's post above) or as part of a set designed simply to prove a point.

But if we want to really nail down numbers, Whitetooth is certainly the closest thing we have to an authoritative source on diminishing returns, and he's coded up all his results in the TankPoints mod. So the easiest way to check these results would be to simply get naked with TankPoints installed, give yourself 689 defense rating, and then start playing with dodge and parry ratings.

 Originally Posted by Raistlin212 For what it's worth - I love the guide in its current form. Perhaps some create use of a spoiler tag would help, or external linking to a few non-essential items could shrink it down. But, I love having a comprehensive guide, and this thread is on my daily news links just because it's so informative and up to date. If you decide to do a complete reformat and clean up then I understand, but please don't reduce this guide's size just for the sake of making it smaller. Its thoroughness is its best attribute.
Yeah, but from that point of view it would be better to just focus the guide on advanced topics. In any event, I doubt I'll remove anything that's already there because that would just mean more work to make sure the rest of it fit together well. So, it'll basically stay the way it is.

EDIT re Dukal: Index comes after it's all in place, and I want to get an index in before I TTT it. Still, you're right, and if I was less anal I'm sure this would be TTT'd already.

And of course, thank you to everyone for the kind words.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 06/15/09, 7:53 PM #1312 Jackinthegreen Banned   Domokingu Blood Elf Paladin   Twisting Nether I love the OP, it covers most everything quite well.. It's just that it doesn't have links to some typical talent setups. I'd like to be able to point some of my friends here and tell them "See, that's the spec I roll with for such-and-such reasons." Slightly off-topic, but works into the thread.. Are you feeling better from having your wisdom teeth removed? Good enough to update some things in the OP, such as more 3.1 changes and tweaks? @Qixxin: Excellent job on the graph and numbers. Do you think it'd be possible to create an interactive thing though where you can add or remove buffs and gear to see how it affects the gear? Even an excel spreadsheet would work. Last edited by Jackinthegreen : 06/15/09 at 7:59 PM.
 06/16/09, 12:52 AM #1313 • frmorrison Protector     Ashstrike Human Paladin   No WoW Account Just because something is popular doesn't make it right. However, at least linking to this site: Protection Paladin Best Talents for Patch 3.1 of World of Warcraft - WoW Popular - Filter by Talents, Paladin class, Protection spec will show people what is most popular. Personally I would use the second build listed there.
 06/16/09, 4:28 AM #1314 Malarkey Glass Joe   Malarkey Blood Elf Paladin   Kalecgos Except out of all of those, only one of them only puts one point into Imp Judgements and the rest put 2 points. I wouldn't go with any of those builds :P
 06/16/09, 5:47 AM #1315 TheBacon Soda Popinski     Baconoflight Human Paladin   Kel'Thuzad I'm seriously confused by the majority of WoW's choices on talents. the only thing close to my 0/53/18 is build 2 but that doesnt have PoJ, which i would consider pretty much mandatory if you are going down ret. Hell barely any of the builds there have it.
06/16/09, 11:53 AM   #1316
vorda
Bald Bull

Jaedenar (EU)
 @Qixxin: Excellent job on the graph and numbers. Do you think it'd be possible to create an interactive thing though where you can add or remove buffs and gear to see how it affects the gear? Even an excel spreadsheet would work.
Like Rawr?

edit: @wowpopular: I'd go as far to say that a site that summarizes the specs of the entire wow population means you DONT pick the most popular ones.
The fact that almost all the prot specs have 2/2 imp judgements, half of them have SoTP but no crusade/conviction, etc proves this.

A talent I can highly recommend in Ulduar btw is imp HoJ. A large amount of trash is stunnable/interruptable and when played correctly, you don't need the ret TPS talents anyway. (and yes, we raid with at least 3 trigger happy destro locks)

Last edited by vorda : 06/16/09 at 12:05 PM.

06/16/09, 2:20 PM   #1317
SeanDamnit
Piston Honda

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by vorda Like Rawr? edit: @wowpopular: I'd go as far to say that a site that summarizes the specs of the entire wow population means you DONT pick the most popular ones. The fact that almost all the prot specs have 2/2 imp judgements, half of them have SoTP but no crusade/conviction, etc proves this. A talent I can highly recommend in Ulduar btw is imp HoJ. A large amount of trash is stunnable/interruptable and when played correctly, you don't need the ret TPS talents anyway. (and yes, we raid with at least 3 trigger happy destro locks)
I wouldn't be too harsh on those that take 2/2 judgements. If you want to go deeper in to the ret tree, you're probably taking 3/3 Crusader and 1/2 Judgement already, so your choice for the last point is either 1/2 Imp BoM which is...useless, 1/5 Benediction which is almost 0 benefit as well, or 2/2 Judgements which while it's shown that having an 8 second CD on judgement gives no benefits in a normal rotation, it is helpful when you're not using your normal rotation - picking up trash, soloing, etc.

So it's not that 2/2 judgement is great, but if you're going deeper in to ret, honestly what's better?

Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.

"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh

06/16/09, 4:03 PM   #1318
TheBacon
Soda Popinski

 Originally Posted by SeanDamnit I wouldn't be too harsh on those that take 2/2 judgements. If you want to go deeper in to the ret tree, you're probably taking 3/3 Crusader and 1/2 Judgement already, so your choice for the last point is either 1/2 Imp BoM which is...useless, 1/5 Benediction which is almost 0 benefit as well, or 2/2 Judgements which while it's shown that having an 8 second CD on judgement gives no benefits in a normal rotation, it is helpful when you're not using your normal rotation - picking up trash, soloing, etc. So it's not that 2/2 judgement is great, but if you're going deeper in to ret, honestly what's better?
While if you strictly run 25 man raids then 1/2 imp might would be pretty useless. It is pretty nice though if you run 10 mans and can't have a full array of buffs.

 06/16/09, 4:47 PM #1319 Malarkey Glass Joe   Malarkey Blood Elf Paladin   Kalecgos If you run in 10 or 25 mans with a reliable Ret Pally (like I am fortunate enough to) that would have 3/3 Heart of the Crusader I'd say getting 2/3 HotC and getting 2/2 Imp BoM is preferrable. It allows them to bless Kings, and me to bless BoM (and consequently bless Sanctuary on myself) meaning a warrior could do Commanding Shout. Perhaps I'm just lucky enough to run with a great group set-up, but it seems to make more sense to me.
06/16/09, 7:06 PM   #1320
jere
Piston Honda

Llane
 Originally Posted by qixxin DR stuff
I actually had a similar wild hair, but I approached it differently. I took the derivatives of the dodge and parry DR equations, which gives you the instantaneous slope values of each based on your current dodge/parry levels, respectively. What that basically tells you is how "efficient" the next bit of dodge or parry is at your current levels (from an instantaneous point of view). Then I looked for the point where the next parry rating gave a better "efficiency" than the next dodge rating, and came up with a linear equation (very similar to yours, though I haven't checked to see if the results matched).

I did it 4 different ways, basically doing the calculation to see where either parry % (pre DR) is more efficient than equal values of dodge % (pre DR) or where parry rating was more efficient than equal values of dodge rating. Both of those were done using pre DR and post DR avoidance levels as the input to the equation:

This is an excerpt from my findings:
 Comparing Dodge % to Parry % pre DR (when to stack parry % over dodge %): d > 1.875*p Comparing Dodge Rating to Parry rating pre DR (when to stack parry rating over dodge rating): d > 2.096252*p + 9.944522 Comparing Dodge % to Parry % post DR (when to stack parry % over dodge %): d_dr > 1.875*p_dr Comparing Dodge Rating to Parry Rating post DR (when to stack parry rating over dodge rating): d_dr > 1.677002*p_dr + 9.304028 I'll post the math for this later once I get equation editor working again. Remember that all those are percentages: d ==> dodge percent before DR minus talents and naked stats p ==> parry percent before DR minus talents and naked stats d_dr ==> dodge percent after DR minus talents and naked stats p_dr ==> parry percent after DR minus talents and naked stats Also, this is a slippery slope because parry has such a steep DR curve. Even if parry ever becomes better to stack (I don't think it can practically), the moment you add more parry, things can change drastically and dodge may be better again. EXAMPLE: On my character sheet, I have: 25.1% dodge 19.6% parry Subtracting out my talents and naked stats: 15.1% dodge 9.6% parry Using the rating to rating comparison (post DR): d_dr > 1.677002*9.6 + 9.304028 I get that it is better to start stacking parry rating when my dodge is 25.4% after DR and before talents/naked stats (or 35.4% including talents/naked stats and after DR).
You can kind of see the thread here.
Maintankadin &bull; View topic - Diminishing Returns. Do some maths for me.

If you are interested in the math, I can dig out my MSOffice disk and install equation editor to whip it up now that I have finally moved.

Last edited by jere : 06/16/09 at 8:29 PM.

 Elitist Jerks The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK)