FFF (Bear) does damage and does not cost any rage.
After reading through Cathela's assessment, it seems Hand of Reckoning is an amalgamation of several concepts:
Our primary taunt is still Righteous Defense, as it costs no mana, does not incur a GCD, and has +8% hit from a Glyph. This is in contrast to Warriors, Druids and DKs, whose primary taunts are all single-target taunts.
HoReck is actually our "flavor" taunt, since it costs mana, and as Cathela pointed out is comparable to Mocking Blow and Challenging Roar. Death Grip as a flavor taunt has no mana cost, but carries a hefty cooldown.
HoReck also carries the banner of the Paladin solution to a baseline 30 yard pulling tool, as requested by Ret Paladins, soloing Holy Paladins and Prot Paladins that need to be careful to get just the one pack.
Finally, HoReck pulls triple duty as the Paladin equivalent of Feral Faerie Fire (Bear), in that it deals a small amount of damage so we can break CC'd targets from long range without asking the Warrior to shoot it with a gun.
How important is armor on rings/cloaks for pallys? Im debating using [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress] over [Band of Torture] but that bonus 400 armor is really tempting to keep. I use Rawr to rank gear and it puts the Band f Torture above the Signet, and I'm just wondering if anyone had some input.
Does anyone else use Rawr, if so how do you set your avoidance and mitigation scales?
What [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress] has going for it mostly is the insane amount of defense on it. I'm actually not that hot on it as an all-round tanking ring but it allowed me to drop my defense trinket and, at this stage of the game, it bridges a huge gap.
I don't really feel qualified enough to answer your question but I've personally always been a huge fan of stacking AC.
Although I am not informed enough to tell you what the ideal ring is in terms of your survivability, I would use the [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress] because of the options it would free up in your other peices of gear. With this extra 28 defense plus the 5 over cap you are right now you could replace your cloak enchant with a 225 armor enchant and free up your bracers for the 40 stm enchant coming with next patch. The armor is nice, but with the cloak enchant you can look at it as trading 180 armor for a large amount of stm and decent amount of hit/expertise.
Another option is changing your helm meta gem, or making a second with the new gem. If the 2% is applied before our 10% from talents and devotion aura (worst case) it is a bonus of 455 armor and 32 stm over 5% block value (around 50 block value assuming you have 1k before talents) and some defense. I'm not running Rawr, but given the extra options that a large defense ring gives you with the extra stm and hit/exp I would have a hard time going with [Band of Torture].
After reading through Cathela's assessment, it seems Hand of Reckoning is an amalgamation of several concepts:
Our primary taunt is still Righteous Defense, as it costs no mana, does not incur a GCD, and has +8% hit from a Glyph. This is in contrast to Warriors, Druids and DKs, whose primary taunts are all single-target taunts.
HoReck is actually our "flavor" taunt, since it costs mana, and as Cathela pointed out is comparable to Mocking Blow and Challenging Roar. Death Grip as a flavor taunt has no mana cost, but carries a hefty cooldown.
HoReck also carries the banner of the Paladin solution to a baseline 30 yard pulling tool, as requested by Ret Paladins, soloing Holy Paladins and Prot Paladins that need to be careful to get just the one pack.
Finally, HoReck pulls triple duty as the Paladin equivalent of Feral Faerie Fire (Bear), in that it deals a small amount of damage so we can break CC'd targets from long range without asking the Warrior to shoot it with a gun.
This is great, because now I feel that I have a TON of ranged threat abilities to help me chain pull and pick up loose mobs. AS, RD, Exorcism, HoReck. Great for chain pulling Heroic CoS Guantlet, for example
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This is great, because now I feel that I have a TON of ranged threat abilities to help me chain pull and pick up loose mobs. AS, RD, Exorcism, HoReck. Great for chain pulling Heroic CoS Guantlet, for example
I also enjoy being able to tank a caster (I.E. after pulling a group with avengers, and being able to toss a judgement over, the new HoR, or even a single shield slam) at ranged and still be able to control the rest of the mobs. Kel'thuzad on 10 man for example, I will have enough threat built up so that I can tank one of the adds that comes out, and still maintain primary aggro.
Something I do find somewhat troublesome is the lack of ability to get specific mobs, and by this I mean HoTr/Avengers shield. I'm not sure how it "picks" targets, but for something like 25 man gothik It can get seemingly overwhelming when you have 10 mobs, and every burst threat ability is on cooldown, but that ONE mob decides to stick to a healer. (Or 25 man noth, even with spell detail on its minimal, my macbook pro even struggled with the obscene AOE detail, and grabbing mobs with holy wrath and consecrate spam was still difficult at 3fps.)
Would be cool if HoTR would "autohit" the 2 other targets in melee range, with lowest threat. In turn giving them all a hit, and a stack of SoV. But this would probably also make tanking pretty mindless. I've just found that when SoR is on CD, HoTr is on cd, and judgement are all down, I can't really do much if anything, because SOV does not leave an instant damage threat.. I've missed the initial SoR on a boss, and seen it run over to the healer, all the while I'm auto attacking trying to get aggro.
While rare, it kinda sucks sometimes. Is HoTR completely random? (Similar for avengers shield?)
Also, has anyone run into an evading gluth? I have run in from the tube, avengers shield, and see a nice big EVADE pop up, so I pop exorcism ASAP, and autoattack, and watched him run over to our paladin healer and one shot him.
Last edited by Dippyskoodlez : 12/17/08 at 9:19 AM.
Also, has anyone run into an evading gluth? I have run in from the tube, avengers shield, and see a nice big EVADE pop up, so I pop exorcism ASAP, and autoattack, and watched him run over to our paladin healer and one shot him.
This one's easy. Don't let your healers, or anyone else, do ANYTHING while you're at the end of the tube. If anyone so much as drinks a potion, he'll aggro onto them, but since they're still up in the tube when you hit the floor, he'll evade from you, waiting for them to come down so he can eat their face. If no one so much as breathes until you hit the floor, then you'll be able to hit the ground running, so to speak.
In regards to HotR and AS "intelligence" in target selection, I personally don't think it's needed. This is completely my own opinion, but tanking is already pretty mindless, and if they automatically locked onto the targets with the least threat built up, it would get even easier. FWIW, shamans have had to deal with this since release when using Chain Lightning. Granted, the uses are completely different, but the target selection is pretty much the same.
How important is armor on rings/cloaks for pallys? Im debating using [Signet of the Impregnable Fortress] over [Band of Torture] but that bonus 400 armor is really tempting to keep. I use Rawr to rank gear and it puts the Band f Torture above the Signet, and I'm just wondering if anyone had some input.
Does anyone else use Rawr, if so how do you set your avoidance and mitigation scales?
If you are def-capped without Sand-Worn, then you have a choice.
I would prefer Sand-worn even def capped because it has so many useful stats on it.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I have a small question, relating 2 pairs of gloves. I am using Horn-Tipped Gauntlets, witch have 38 STR., 97 STAM., 48 DR and 67 ER. Would it be a good idea to change to the Heroes' Redemption Handguards? It would be my 3rd t7 item, witch gives no bonus (aldough the bonuses are crap IMO), but they give me 13 STR., 43 DR and 30 HR + Blue socket at the loss of 10 STAM., 10 DR and 67 ER raw. I am a little affraid to drop my expertise... I am at 109, witch isn't top of the line but just helps out with parry gabbing.
Atm my stats are following:
Vouldit be wise to pick those almost free gloves? I would have to cap defense changing my Cygils Shield For Loarderon's one, witch would make my dodge just a tiny bit up, but my Expertise will go to under 10 points. What goes first? Hit or Expertise?
PS: atm I'm still trying to get hardly equipped on 10-man, aldough I have gear for raiding 25-man
I would probably take the T7 Gloves. Expertise only helps Hammer of the Righteous and auto-attacks, but Hit Rating covers everything we do, Consecration, Holy Shield, SHOR and all. The stat loss can be made up for by the blue socket.
An item unrelated to the topic but yet related to the thread... when I try to view the first post in this thread I am currently receiving an error message that says:
Fatal error: Call to undefined function wowhead_quality() in /home2/elitistj/public_html/includes/init.php(329) : eval()'d code on line 293
Is anyone else experiencing this? Is there a good place to report an error such as this?
There was a post somewhere in this thread proving that every Consecration tick can be resisted, it just never appears in the combat logs. If a tick gets resisted, you get a 1 second gap in your log.
An item unrelated to the topic but yet related to the thread... when I try to view the first post in this thread I am currently receiving an error message that says:
Is anyone else experiencing this? Is there a good place to report an error such as this?
Confirmed. It is not just you. I run firefox at home and work, and see the error in both places.
Here's a question for you experienced tankadins out there.
What sort of sets are you actively planning and collecting as you run through Naxx, OS, and Malygos?
At first look, it seems logical to plan to collect a full mitigation set and a full avoidance set, as those appear to be the two extremes.
By mitigation I am meaning BV, armor, BR, and stamina (so AD kicks in sooner) to smooth out the incoming damage curve and minimize damage taken AOE tanking or against fast hitting bosses.
By Avoidance I am meaning, of course, dodge, parry, miss, to avoid getting hit as much overall.
Perhaps collecting for extremes isn't terribly valuable, however. Perhaps the mitigation extreme is useful, for true AOE trash tanking or heroics, but would we really want to run a set that gives up a ton of BV for higher avoidance? On what boss would relying more on lucky miss streaks and less on smoothing out incoming damage really be valuable?
I ask because in going through all potential remaining upgrades, there is often one great avoidance upgrade and one great mitigation upgrade, and several that are in-between. It is useful to have goals in mind and know when to use the collected sets, rather than haphazardly bidding on every upgrade in your path, regardless of whether it fits into one of the ideal sets you are looking for.
I realize this thread is a month old, but I couldn't find a more recent discussion of the issue.
One of the changes in 3.0.8 that we may or may not have announced is that we changed Judgment of Light to do no threat in order to fix some of this seemingly random behavior. We aren't trying to nerf Prot paladin threat overall with this change.
The topic came up again recently when Protadin OTs were accidentally pulling off the MT with huge threat spikes while tanking adds etc.
Over all good thing.
On a completely unrelated note, do any of you find it necessary to use Seal of Wisdom for pretty much all non-boss situations (Heroics, raid trash, etc)? I find it necessary to keep chain pulling without drinking every other pull. This could be because I like to put up Kings instead of BoS in 5 mans.
I rarely use SoV unless it's a raid boss, and even then it's more because of the parry gib reduction benefits than the threat benefits.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh
On a completely unrelated note, do any of you find it necessary to use Seal of Wisdom for pretty much all non-boss situations (Heroics, raid trash, etc)? I find it necessary to keep chain pulling without drinking every other pull. This could be because I like to put up Kings instead of BoS in 5 mans.
I rarely use SoV unless it's a raid boss, and even then it's more because of the parry gib reduction benefits than the threat benefits.
Bolded is your answer. Sanc yourself - even if it requires taking the time to give another pally 10min whatevers (hint - get PallyPower), count your blessings if by some chance you get another pally who can King you, and use SoV. You are intentionally crippling yourself by going this track.
To Mordekhuul - YMMV, I have Stam/Def/BR/BV/Armor as my key target stats. Everything else will fill in as it comes, and I don't see (at this point) a need to have high avoidance/high threat sets - yet. Of course, a few different pieces of gear won't hurt any (trinkets are good for situational use items). However, I'm much more likely to start building those sets after Ulduar, when the stat differential is much more pronounced. I just don't think it's worth the bother right now.
On a completely unrelated note, do any of you find it necessary to use Seal of Wisdom for pretty much all non-boss situations (Heroics, raid trash, etc)? I find it necessary to keep chain pulling without drinking every other pull. This could be because I like to put up Kings instead of BoS in 5 mans.
I rarely use SoV unless it's a raid boss, and even then it's more because of the parry gib reduction benefits than the threat benefits.
I can give you my experience, for what it's worth.
I don't even have Kings in my spec any longer. I use Blessing of Sanctuary for everything I do: grinding, PvP, regular and heroic 5-mans. (Not geared enough to raid yet, and even if I were I'm not sure I want to get back into it yet.) Using BoS (in grinding and regular instances), I find that if I'm tanking 3+ mobs at a time, I have absolutely no trouble with mana, to the point that I can use SoV, judge light for threat (although I guess I won't be doing that anymore), and I won't even need Divine Plea to stay up on mana.
However, when I get down to just one or two mobs, I generally have to seal Wisdom to avoid going OOM, but even then I can usually get by until they are dead and start the next multi-mob pull on 1/4 mana, only to watch my mana bar fill up.
On regular 5-man bosses I use SoV until I get low on mana, then SoW until my mana bar fills up, then swap back.
In heroics, I'm currently still so undergeared that I get by with just the mana returns from Spiritual Attunement. I use SoV and judge light to help out the healer.
Same situation for me as Left i think. BoSanc I consider standard, and I still feel mana starved as often as I don't. I cannot imagine what it would be like to use a different blessing.
For SoW I look at it from this perspective: I'm oom at the end of a pull then I'm gonna be raging IRL (on top of normal tank rage) which is not healthy. Drinking as a tank is all kinds of wrong to me so I seek to avoid it at all costs.
So I use SoW by default, and only use SoV if I see I have full mana at the end of a pull (then I switch back to SoW halfway) or if I'm in an infinite mana situation. Usually that means a hard hitting trash mob, boss, or somewhere where I'm tanking 3+ melee mobs. Casters are an annoyance and should die first so the melee can hit me and regen me some mana.
I'd like to give Divine Plea some credit in helping ease the mana issues, but it doesn't deserve any such kudos.
Are you using Divine Plea on CD? I keep it on CD even in 25mans unless I'm tanking a boss.
Also, you don't need to overthreat stuff as well. If have agro on everything by a good margin stop spamming Consecrate and Hammer and just keep threat on the DPS target.
Last edited by Saltycracker : 12/18/08 at 12:10 PM.
Are you using Divine Plea on CD? I keep it on CD even in 25mans unless I'm tanking a boss.
I do when not using SoW, but it doesn't seem like enough.
I think the bigger problem is that I'm not using BoS. I do this to help out healers, because I don't like CC, I chain pull, and I'm not too geared right now so the extra health is nice.
I'll try running with BoS and see how my mana goes and see how my healers react.
Re: not needing to over-aggro stuff - We usually AoE our way through heroics, so I do need to keep high threat on groups constantly. Also I do a signifigant chunk of DPS when using a full rotation, and it seems to me that dropping abilities from my rotation because I'm mana starved would cost more DPS than using SoW over SoV.
Card carrying member of the Inapropriately in Love with Hilary Duff Society.
"Yeah, well, if we could all get what we want I would be eating dinner out of Hilary Duff's skull right now" - Salabesh