Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11/25/08, 4:58 AM   #16
Chmur
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Originally Posted by JettJaguar View Post
According to the tooltip in Pawn, it uses the values you enter for empty slots and the actual values of gems for filled slots. Hence, if you are wearing an item with a 16Str gem in it but have valued for 20Str gems, the empty items will be a bit inflated.
I am not sure about how Pawn values are evaluated to be honest, so following is just very very rough maths. Please correct me if I am missing point somewhere

So, let's say we value red socket at STRx16 (assuming we gem with rare gems), so that's 168.09x16=2689.44 Now, rets will always gem red socket with red gem, so we go there for socket bonus part.

My other concern is weighting other sockets. There are many various and useful gem choices, especially orange with all those rating / STR and rating / rating gems. So the question there is - shall we count value for each of these gems and then use mediocre value, or just use % of base red socket value? I am more in favour of % option, as it more reflects the possibility to gem with 16STR, but as well maintains relative value of stick-to-color gemming for bonus.

Last edited by Chmur : 11/25/08 at 9:09 AM. Reason: Damn them typos

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 9:10 AM   #17
Voldin
Don Flamenco
 
Voldin's Avatar
 
Knoxform
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Chmur View Post
I am not sure about how Pawn values are evaluated to be honest, so following is just very very rough maths. Please correct me if I am missing point somewhere

So, let's say we value red socket at STRx16 (assuming we gem with rare gems), so that's 168.09x16=2689.44 Now, rets will always gem red socket with red gem, so we go there for socket bonus part.

My other concern is weighting other sockets. There are many various and useful gem choices, especially orange with all those rating / STR and rating / rating gems. So the question there is - shall we count value for each of these gems and then use mediocre value, or just use % of base red socket value? I am more in favour of % option, as it more reflects the possibility to gem with 20STR, but as well maintains relative value of stick-to-color gemming for bonus.
More often than not, the socket bonuses you'd gain by matching socket colors will not outweigh the benefit you would get just by socketing straight STR gems. You would most likely want to plan on having the gems get valued as if you were dropping a STR gem in them.

Pawn will calculate the theoretical value of an Item and the actual value of an item if your actual socketing doesn't match the value you'd set for each socket color. You'll see 2048 (2052) for example if your gem choices are 4 points less valuable than what you put in manually.

LodeRunner on The Baby Thread:
Originally Posted by LodeRunner View Post
I came to this thread expecting to see a lot of whiny posts from Xi. Disappointing.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 9:17 AM   #18
Chmur
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Originally Posted by Voldin View Post
More often than not, the socket bonuses you'd gain by matching socket colors will not outweigh the benefit you would get just by socketing straight STR gems. You would most likely want to plan on having the gems get valued as if you were dropping a STR gem in them.

Pawn will calculate the theoretical value of an Item and the actual value of an item if your actual socketing doesn't match the value you'd set for each socket color. You'll see 2048 (2052) for example if your gem choices are 4 points less valuable than what you put in manually.
So every socket should have same value and that of 16 (20) STR to reflect the possibility to gem it with STR?

That does not cover situation when I am loosing crit rating for red+yellow socket and haste let's say. Now I want to know the value of yellow socket as not pure STR, because I will be gemming crit there to regain loss, for example. if I am talking jibberish slap me, dead tired at work.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 10:54 AM   #19
Voldin
Don Flamenco
 
Voldin's Avatar
 
Knoxform
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Chmur View Post
So every socket should have same value and that of 16 (20) STR to reflect the possibility to gem it with STR?

That does not cover situation when I am loosing crit rating for red+yellow socket and haste let's say. Now I want to know the value of yellow socket as not pure STR, because I will be gemming crit there to regain loss, for example. if I am talking jibberish slap me, dead tired at work.
Strength=168.09
HitRating=126.59
ExpertiseRating=79.55
CritRating=73.56
HasteRating=41.78

In essentially all situations, you'd want to be gemming for STR other than meta-gem requirements.

Using 20STR gems, the only situation with those stat weights that would be worth gemming along socket colors would be when you use 10STR/10Hit gems to get a yellow socket and your socket bonus was worth more than the following values (per socket).

2.5 STR
3.3 Hit
5.25 Expertise
5.65 Crit
9.4 Haste

Unless you're looking at a STR socket bonus, or possibly hit, you can pretty much ignore colors and just stock up on STR gems.

LodeRunner on The Baby Thread:
Originally Posted by LodeRunner View Post
I came to this thread expecting to see a lot of whiny posts from Xi. Disappointing.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 12:05 PM   #20
Redcape
King Hippo
 
Redcape's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
As far as pvp numbers go, I would personally weight hit much higher than my spreadsheet goes. Missing on a Hammer, Judgement or Repentance is so disastrous that being hit capped is absolutely key. I would personally make it a huge priority to be hit capped in pvp for those reasons, and at that point the weightings of things in my sheet are not the be all and end all.

If you want to weight for solo or pvp buffing levels it is pretty easy if you have the sheet.

Here

All you do is go into the TalentsBuffs and Numbers sections and edit the values there. If you don't expect to have Motw soloing you just zero the value in the blue box next to it, and the same holds true for all buffs. As long as you are level 80 you can edit any of the buffs or values in the sheet directly to make it reflect your exact situation. The issue is that the rotations described in my sheet are not at all applicable to those situations and in fact making rotations that accurately model those situations is close to impossible. That said, if you adjust the gear entries and the buff entries to reflect your situation and make the delays on your abilities something sensible the sheet will spit out numbers that are a very good starting point.

Basic things to do to make the sheet work for soloing/pvp

-Go to the TalentsBuffs section and put zeros (or just delete) the numbers in the blue areas for any buff or talent you do not have.
-Go to the Gear section and update the entries in the top blue area to reflect the gear you are using at the moment.
-Go to the Numbers section and change the bottom 'Target stats' section to the following:

Level – 80
Base Armor – 6000
Glance Redux - 0
Dodge – 5
Miss – 5
Resist – 4
Partial Resist – 0

Note the armor entry may well be different. That is my wild speculation for the armor on a random world mob, but that may be off. You may also want to change the armor entry to reflect what a player would have in pvp for example.

There will always be substantial issues in the fact that expertise is doubly valuable while soloing because the monsters are facing you and vastly less so in pvp since often your targets cannot parry or dodge. The nice thing is that pvp gear doesn't have much variety, you simply don't have 8 different pieces you can get in a slot so gearing is much more straightforward.

I built this spreadsheet with customizability in mind, rather than ease of use. If you want to use it for something that it doesn't seem necessarily suited for (like pvp) you can probably change the values on the back pages and make it work quite reasonably. If you can't and would like something added to increase the functionality of the sheet overall, just let me know and I can look into adding it in. I could for example have the sheet track the stamina and resilience on the gear you enter and post final health and resilience values. I don't think that would be particularly helpful since the kind of in depth analysis I am doing here isn't really very accurate for pvp situations, but it is something that could go in if there is a demand for it.

Canada Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 3:55 PM   #21
Alarius
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
I would be interested in good relative values for hit, stamina, and resilience in PVP to be used as weights in Pawn. Right now, I'm trying to figure out where to start in placing values in these fields.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 5:05 PM   #22
Zarty
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Frostwolf
Your value for int for holy seems awfully low to me relative to the crit and spell power. Using the numbers from the combat ratings at 80 thread:

1 int is worth .006% crit. with kings and divine intellect, that's 0.0075% crit.
1 crit rating is .0218% crit and is worth 1.4 pawn rating.
1 int provides 34.4% the value of 1 crit rating, so should get .4816 pawn rating from its crit value.

1 int is worth .2 spell power. With kings and divine intellect, it should be worth .25 spell power.
spell power is worth 1.1 pawn rating.
1 int provides 25% the value of 1 spell power, so should get .275 pawn rating from its spell power value.

So that's a total of .7566 pawn rating, using your formula, before you account for the other benefits int provides. 1 int is 15 mana or 18.75 mana with divine intellect and kings to start the fight with. 18.75 mana also yields .21 mp5 with a 90% replenishment uptime, and .390 mp5 using divine plea on cooldown.

It's so hard to come up with useful numbers for holy, though, so since so much depends on your playstyle, spell selection, etc.

edit: updated numbers from combat ratings thread.

Last edited by Zarty : 11/25/08 at 6:27 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 6:05 PM   #23
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Zarty View Post
Your value for int for holy seems awfully low to me relative to the crit and spell power.
I bumped up Int's value a bit, since you have a good point. I also changed the meta socket since 21 int and 600 mana every minute is pretty good.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 6:28 PM   #24
Zarty
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Frostwolf
Yeah, and past a certain point in int, the [ZZOLD Design: Ember Skyflare Diamond] becomes arguably even better:
The Holy Paladin Guide for WotLK

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 8:14 PM   #25
Babathong
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
I installed Pawn but when it asks for the values it says 1 strength = ? Should I be dividing the 168.09 by 100 seeing that redcapes numbers were based off 100 of each stat, not just 1, or should I just input the strings as stated above regardless of what pawns says its based off of.

I just want to make sure that I am doing this properly.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 10:11 PM   #26
gezmodean
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
I installed Pawn but when it asks for the values it says 1 strength = ? Should I be dividing the 168.09 by 100 seeing that redcapes numbers were based off 100 of each stat, not just 1, or should I just input the strings as stated above regardless of what pawns says its based off of.

I just want to make sure that I am doing this properly.
Baba, what pawn is asking you for is equivalence, it helps you try to come up with numbers. The strings we create can be imported using the 'import' function in the options section.

As I mentioned before, its all relative, so if you want your numbers to be lower (e.g. instead of 100,000 for a rating, 1000, divide by 100).

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 10:25 PM   #27
JettJaguar
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Frostmane
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
I installed Pawn but when it asks for the values it says 1 strength = ? Should I be dividing the 168.09 by 100 seeing that redcapes numbers were based off 100 of each stat, not just 1, or should I just input the strings as stated above regardless of what pawns says its based off of.

I just want to make sure that I am doing this properly.
That is what I did. Ultimately, you want to keep all the values correctly relative to one another whether that is 168 to 127 or 1.68 to 1.27. The ratio is what is important not the total number.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/25/08, 10:33 PM   #28
gezmodean
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Eldre'Thalas
Just updated a couple of the values based on the discussion and added the wowhead equivalence ratings.

One thing I'd like to note, most of what we're seeing here is PvE equivalence, and in some cases (e.g. the current redcape strings) heavily favor weapons, to a potential fault. Adding more stats will inflate the numbers, but do you feel that its more important to have more specific strings, or a more generic valuation of gear ?

How do you use your pawn ?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/26/08, 12:24 AM   #29
Alarius
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by gezmodean View Post
How do you use your pawn ?
Right now I have four scales, one for healing, one for tanking, one for DPS (primary set because of my ret spec) and another for PVP which I would like to tune a little better until I can get my hands on some entry-level Gladiator stuff. The healing and tanking sets are based off of values I've found off of Wowhead's theorycrafting forum discussing WotLK weights. Also, I use my scales mostly in assisting me in determining which item is more geared to my specific focus.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 11/26/08, 1:10 AM   #30
Imala
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by gezmodean View Post
Just updated a couple of the values based on the discussion and added the wowhead equivalence ratings.

One thing I'd like to note, most of what we're seeing here is PvE equivalence, and in some cases (e.g. the current redcape strings) heavily favor weapons, to a potential fault. Adding more stats will inflate the numbers, but do you feel that its more important to have more specific strings, or a more generic valuation of gear ?

How do you use your pawn ?
I think it would be nice to stay somewhat generic. However, I would like to see strings when not hit capped, when hit capped, same with expertise.

We all know it's not linear, but having couple of guidelines like that could be helpful.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Paladins

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Itemization Values rbrogan Class Mechanics 0 05/18/07 9:59 AM
extra values from set bonus' FAME Class Mechanics 5 05/03/07 1:27 PM
Question about values of certain stats over others. Lyd Public Discussion 1 07/12/06 7:21 PM
Partial resists at odd values Hamlet Public Discussion 7 06/17/06 8:31 PM
Armor Values Torael_7 Public Discussion 36 01/24/06 9:47 AM