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Old 11/26/08, 2:14 AM   #31
Chmur
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Originally Posted by gezmodean View Post
How do you use your pawn ?
Totaly generic, just for quick look whether I should look into the comparison a bit more. If I see 2 items in reasonable point difference span, then I usualy run spreadsheet or quick proper yet napkin math on them.

Originally Posted by Imala View Post
I think it would be nice to stay somewhat generic. However, I would like to see strings when not hit capped, when hit capped, same with expertise.

We all know it's not linear, but having couple of guidelines like that could be helpful.
I really think having those hit and exp capped strings will be very helpful indeed. And while someone is at it, could you input the socket value of 168.09x16 (reflecting rare STR gems socketing possibility) - 2689,44 More details to it can be found on previous page, as well as the bordering limits of following socket bonuses for everyone's info. Thanks.

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Old 11/26/08, 9:51 AM   #32
Altirias
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Cho'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by gezmodean View Post

Protection Strings
( Pawn: v1: "wowhead PvE prot": Defense=100, Stamina=98, DodgeRating=94, ParryRating=88, Agility=81, BlockRating=63, SpellPower=38, ExpertiseRating=25, Intellect=25, BlockValue=25, SpellHitRating=19, Armor=8) Added Nov 25
You're not rating Strength at all ? Shouldn't it be at least 0.575 * Block Value => 0.575 * 25 = 14.375
And that's not even accounting for the threat component

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Old 11/26/08, 11:43 AM   #33
Alarius
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
For Prot I've been using the values found at Wowhead's TC forum...

Plate Armor - Items - World of Warcraft

Defense: 100
Stamina: 98
Dodge: 86
Parry: 76
Agility: 76
Block Rating: 38
Strength: 38
Expertise: 25
Block Value: 25
Hit Rating: 19
Armor: 8

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Old 11/26/08, 1:08 PM   #34
Jourgenson
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor
What equivalency rating are you all using for the chaotic skyflare meta?

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Old 11/26/08, 1:22 PM   #35
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Jourgenson View Post
What equivalency rating are you all using for the chaotic skyflare meta?
I just added a meta value for the 21 agility/3% crit meta (I prefer it over the 21 crit meta). I just did agility value * 21 and adding a bit for the crit bonus. The dps gain of the crit bonus is 3% * crit rate, so that is hard to give that a value, since that is about a 1% dps gain.


I also lowered expertise's value for Prot, since it only affects three attacks (auto, Seals and HotR).

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Old 11/26/08, 1:32 PM   #36
Rasputin
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
I installed Pawn but when it asks for the values it says 1 strength = ? Should I be dividing the 168.09 by 100 seeing that redcapes numbers were based off 100 of each stat, not just 1, or should I just input the strings as stated above regardless of what pawns says its based off of.

I just want to make sure that I am doing this properly.
I divided each number by 100 to get somewhat more reasonable totals on items, but it doesn't make any difference really. As long as the relative values remain the same you can divide and multiply each number by whatever you wish. Leaving the numbers as is will just make the resulting sums 100x larger than they "should" be. Just make sure to change all numbers or none by the same factor, and it will be the same result.

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Old 11/26/08, 7:54 PM   #37
Redcape
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Jourgenson View Post
What equivalency rating are you all using for the chaotic skyflare meta?
That is a good question. I value the 3% crit damage component at 93.35 dps. That is simply what my sheet showed as the dps difference when I removed it. That value will change with your dps total, but if you are using the values my spreadsheet spits out currently it should be a great place to start.

So if str = 168.09, then 3% crit meta is worth 9335 + the value of 21 crit rating.

I personally divided all the values by 100 for pawn purposes to make my results smaller, so in my personal pawn string it looks like str = 1.68 and a meta socket is 93.35 + value of 21 crit rating.

As a note this meta is so absurdly powerful that any helmet without a meta socket is pretty nearly an automatic writeoff. Unless you are upgrading 2 tiers or more of content you can't consider any hat without a meta.

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Old 11/26/08, 8:16 PM   #38
Alarius
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
In PvP, you attack the same level people (except in AV), so you only need 5% hit. However in a raid, you need 9% hit because boss kills are what matters.

Since you are interested in Naxx, I would recommend making two lists. One for SoB and another for PvP starting from the SoC list (adding a weight for stamina and resilience (resilience's value should be higher) while decreasing hit rating's value from the SoC list). This PvP list would help you decide what to use until you start filling out your slots with PvP gear.

Or you could just use the SoB list to make things easier.
I am curious, how much do you suggest I allocate for hit, resilience, and stamina? I'm hoping to finalize my PVP scale tonight.

Last edited by Alarius : 11/26/08 at 8:23 PM.

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Old 11/27/08, 7:42 AM   #39
Kigale
Piston Honda
 
Orc Hunter
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post

I also lowered expertise's value for Prot, since it only affects three attacks (auto, Seals and HotR).
Not shield of righteousness? I thought I saw a combat log in one of these threads showing Shield being parried.

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Old 11/27/08, 9:05 AM   #40
Chmur
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Shadowsong (EU)
How to value hit after cap though? It has pretty high weight so sticking to unchanged values could screw you over (yeah, need to apply common sense) but still, any ideas how to reflect hit cap? You can't set the value to 0, as that would gimp it as "potentional future" stat to create some "hit bank" for replacement of hit heavy items, but while hit capped crit should be above it, shouldn't it? Could anyone do maths for this please?

And another request, please - I am unable to find anywhere how much is 5 expertise at lvl 80 converted into rating, as I am dwarf and thus having 5 exp racial with maces makes them really favoured weapon. Could anyone tell me the ratio, please? I can do the maths myself, just need the base numbers. Thanks.

Save the dolphins or something please. They are in more danger than Ret pallies
-Golden quote from those wild days around 3.03 release-

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Old 11/27/08, 1:36 PM   #41
Aramul
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Chmur View Post
And another request, please - I am unable to find anywhere how much is 5 expertise at lvl 80 converted into rating, as I am dwarf and thus having 5 exp racial with maces makes them really favoured weapon. Could anyone tell me the ratio, please? I can do the maths myself, just need the base numbers. Thanks.
[FAQ]Working theories of raiding at level 80

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Old 11/28/08, 12:48 PM   #42
Jourgenson
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Redcape View Post
That is a good question. I value the 3% crit damage component at 93.35 dps. That is simply what my sheet showed as the dps difference when I removed it. That value will change with your dps total, but if you are using the values my spreadsheet spits out currently it should be a great place to start.

So if str = 168.09, then 3% crit meta is worth 9335 + the value of 21 crit rating.

I personally divided all the values by 100 for pawn purposes to make my results smaller, so in my personal pawn string it looks like str = 1.68 and a meta socket is 93.35 + value of 21 crit rating.

As a note this meta is so absurdly powerful that any helmet without a meta socket is pretty nearly an automatic writeoff. Unless you are upgrading 2 tiers or more of content you can't consider any hat without a meta.
Yeah when I got home yesterday I plugged the meta into your spreadsheet and with the 22 crit rating it came out at around 120 dps or so with my gear. I'm almost regretting replacing my CVoS with the [Fire-Scorched Greathelm]. Oh well, I'm sure I'll get my tier helm soon enough.

Regarding the hit cap value, I just have 2 scales on my tooltips, one with a hit value of zero for over the hit cap.

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Old 11/29/08, 9:01 PM   #43
Rickety
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
The Prot strings listed in the earlier posts have an error as Defense should be listed as DefenseRating.

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Old 11/30/08, 4:56 AM   #44
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
I think it would've been useful if pawn would also list the value of the "raw" item - that is without enchants, and using the sockets the way pawn would use them instead of what's actually in them. That would make it easier to compare my current items to drops or items other people are using.

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Old 12/01/08, 1:18 PM   #45
Left
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
For prot ratings, I have found it helpful to use multiple scales which tell me different things about the gear I am examining. I personally have five different scales right now: Avoidance, Full Avoidance, Block Value, Crit Reduction, and Health. I use the scales to help me determine which gearset a piece of gear should go into (threat, avoidance, high health, etc), as well as (particularly right now while leveling) to see what I need to have in order to become crit-immune again (by comparing the "crit reduction" on the new piece to the one I am replacing).

I have the scales set up such that the number I see actually corresponds directly to a real quantity. IE, the pawn value I see on the "Full Avoidance" scale will be numerically the % dodge, miss, and parry that the piece provides me. The "Health" value is the number of hitpoints the piece should give me. Etc. I find that this system helps me distill the key quantities out of the gear that I pick up while still maintaining enough granularity for me to be able to make intelligent decisions about gearing.

For those interested, here are the scales I use and how I derived them. For rating conversions, I'm using the data posted in the prot field manual thread. Any stats not listed in any given scale can be assumed to be given zero weight.

Avoidance
This scale will yield a total % avoidance (miss+dodge+parry+block) given the amount of each stat
Note: this scale counts blocks. See the next scale for the full avoidance weights.

Agility: 52.08 agility = 1% dodge; 1 Agility = 0.0192 points
Dodge Rating: 39.35 dodge rating = 1% dodge; 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0254 points
Parry Rating: 49.18 parry rating = 1% parry; 1 Parry Rating = 0.0203 points
Block Rating: 16.29 block rating = 1% block; 1 Block Rating = 0.0614 points
Defense Rating: 25 defense (25*4.92 = 123 defense rating) = 1% each miss, dodge, parry, block; 1 Defense Rating = 0.0325 points


Full Avoidance
This scale will yield a total % full avoidance (miss+dodge+parry) given the amount of each stat

Agility: 52.08 agility = 1% dodge; 1 Agility = 0.0192 points
Dodge Rating: 39.35 dodge rating = 1% dodge; 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0254 points
Parry Rating: 49.18 parry rating = 1% parry; 1 Parry Rating = 0.0203 points
Defense Rating: 25 defense (25*4.92 = 123 defense rating) = 1% each miss, dodge, parry; 1 Defense Rating = 0.0244 points


Block Value
This scale will yield the total amount of block value present
Note: Assumes 5/5 Divine Strength and 3/3 Redoubt

Block Value: 1 block value = (1)*(1.3) block value; 1 Block Value = 1.3 points
Strength: 1 strength = (0.5)*(1.15)*(1.3) block value; 1 Strength = 0.7475 points


Crit Reduction
This scale will yield a total % reduction in the number of incoming critical strikes given the amount of each stat

Defense Rating: 25 defense (25*4.92 = 123 defense rating) = 1% crit reduction; 1 Defense Rating = 0.0081 points
Resilience Rating: 81.97 resilience rating = 1% crit reduction; 1 Resilience Rating = 0.0122 points


Health
This scale will yield the total amount of hit points that the piece will provide
Note: Assumes 2/2 Sacred Duty and 3/3 Combat Expertise

Stamina: 1 stamina = (10)*(1.06)*(1.06) = 11.236 health; 1 stamina = 11.236 points
Health: 1 health = 1 health; 1 Health = 1 points



For sockets, I make the assumption that I will put a standard gem in each socket. At the moment, while leveling, I don't care to invest in blue gems; therefore I weight the sockets in each scale as if they contained my green gems of choice: [Solid Chalcedony] (blue socket), [Enduring Dark Jade] (yellow socket), or [Sovereign Shadow Crystal] (red socket). I just multiply the appropriate stats on those gems by the weightings above, sum it, and use that as my socket weighting.

Unfortunately, this can cause problems. When viewing an unsocketed item, Pawn now gives you the option to either match socket colors properly or to "smart gem" the sockets such that you obtain the most points (on that particular scale) by treating sockets as the highest value color and taking into account the value of socket bonuses. The problem with this second method is that it causes conflicts between scales. Pawn will assume a full set of "red" socketed gems for the Block Value scale, as the red socket is the only socket that has any rating on that scale. Same for "yellow" socketed gems on the avoidance scales. Obviously, since both can't occur at the same time, it gives numbers for the values of each scale that are skewed upwards too much.

The way to avoid this issue is to tell pawn to always socket by socket color (to match socket bonuses). (This is a global option for each scale that has an option box which appears when you click on a socket color to set its weight.) That way, I can always assume a given socket has the gems I set above and Pawn will give me accurate weights.

EDIT: When using the scales above, make sure you set Pawn to round to 2 or 3 decimal places of precision when calculating weights. Otherwise, you end up with items rounded to a whole percent of avoidance/etc, which isn't all that useful. (Ideally, you would have a precision of 1 for the BV and Health scales, and 0.01 for the avoidance and crit reduction scales. Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to set precision per each scale, only a global option.)

Last edited by Left : 12/03/08 at 10:47 AM.

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