Chromy

With ghostcrawler's recent post, I am wondering just how "attractive" the option is to be changing seals. Can anyone on the prt drop some parses of

A. Patchwerk full throttle SoB/M DPS with self damage done
B. Patchwerk SoC DPS
C. Patchwerk Swapping seals every 4th judgment between SoB/m and SoC with self damage done

I have a strong feeling DPS will be in the order of A>B>C while C the player would be a higher "Liability" then B.

 

whistler-z

 

• frmorrison

SoC may scale better with haste, however it takes a glyph slot to make Command nearly equal to Blood (about ~3% less and loss of a glyph slot). It would be nice to have a spreadsheet with 3.1 numbers in it.


Regarding why Blood self-damage wasn't an issue during Beta is no one had ilvl 203+ weapons that hit yourself so hard that it couldn't be healed quickly. 33% of damage scales much faster than stamina gains or JoL healing.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

greatrichie

Edit: You can delete this.

 

• Avitus

This so called SoC haste scaling is also incredibly overrated. Even with crazy haste gear it's not worth mentioning.

 

Psychosomatic

I suspect that were the 1 second internal cooldown removed, it'd be much more competitive.

 

beta4Life

edti: I have found the discussion on SoC and haste, and it works as I imagined it would(when i was writing the early post, I figured I may have been wrong on the complete lack of scaling, and figured it would increase the PPM slightly since SoC PPM is based on weapon speed before haste) by essentially increasing the PPM.


Went ahead and deleted the original post, since I was incorrect initially, been doing a little napkin math to get some numbers, figured I would throw them in here for you.

SoC = 8.4 PPM (glyphed) Scales with haste via increasing the PPM, since the % proc remains unchanged by haste.
SoB = Proc on hit, scales with haste directly, 1 extra white hit = 1 extra SoB proc.

3.4 speed weapon (Betrayer, and the top end Ulduar weapons)

SoC has a % proc on swing of 47.6% with a 3.4 speed weapon.

with 35% haste the PPM essentially increases to 11.3 a 35% improvement.

SoB would go from 17.6 SoB procs to 23.8 procs, a 35% improvement.

Now just for grins lets double the haste to see what happens at an unreasonable level.

SoC with 70% haste PPM = 14.28, 70% improvement (as expected)

SoB with 70% haste goes from 17.6 procs to 30 procs, 70% as well.

So unless I am going wrong somewhere in here, SoB and SoC actually scale with haste the same amount. The only argument for SoC scaling better would have to be that 11.3 SoC procs does more damage than 23.8 SoB procs, which should be true in all cases, the exact amount is difficult to tell (for me at least, no excel on this computer). The problem is that either way, seal damage is fairly inconsequential compared to judgment damage (thanks to RV), and since JoB is nearly twice as large as JoC I would not imagine any realistic level of haste would put SoC ahead of SoB.


Another edit simply to show the ridiculously huge difference between SoC and SoB with a few parses. It can be hard to compare separate parses due to differences in fight length, buff up time etc. However the difference is so huge that it can be seen even in two very different parses.

Wow Web Stats

That is our Immortal run, where I used SoC on Gluth just to be super extra careful (the dps loss really doesn't matter). Note that I was active for 2'23", during that time SoC did 152,051 damage + the RV damage.

Wow Web Stats

This is our kill this week where we were seeing how quickly we could kill bosses ( I use this parse because I only have one other to compare, and it was our 20 man where we were missing the 10% AP buff, and didn't have WF down for most of the fights). Note that I was active for 1'25" (40% less time than the previous parse), however SoB did 199,987 damage + RV.

So excluding RV SoB did 2352 DPS, and SoC did 1063 DPS. Like I said earlier, there are so many differing factors at work that you cannot conclude that SoB is 2.3 times as good as SoC from this, however you can conclude that SoB is much much much better, and that it is almost impossible to imagine any amount of haste that would make these numbers relatively close, and much more importantly make SoC better than SoB.

 

Rasputin

You would also need to model a 1s internal cd on SoC procs which would certainly eat up some procs even at lower hastes and would provide a hardcap for haste gains at higher haste especially considering runins with CS and DS and in Command's case, Judgement.

 

beta4Life

The ICD wouldn't actually effect my numbers (since I did not including instant attacks). Also funny little tidbit, one of the factors that is supposed to make SoC strong is that the seal can proc from judgments, but since it is a PPM ability you will get 100% of your procs from your white swings, and the fact that it can proc from other abilities does not change the amount of damage it will do in the slightest. To clarify that, with no haste you will get 8.4 procs per minute, and assuming you have a weapon with a speed faster than 7.2 (pretty easy assumption), your white swings are enough to get you all your procs, using instants will not increase your seal damage at all. Adding haste increases your weapon speed the exact amount it increases your PPM (percentage wise of course) so no matter your haste level your white swings will be enough to get you all of your SoC procs(since 7.2 is the weapon speed threshold, and the slowest weapon in the game is 4.0).

 

Rurahk

I don't know if it's your understanding or my understanding of PPM that's wrong. The way I understand it, PPM is used to figure out the % chance that a strike will proc an ability, and the PPM is determined by your swing speed. In other words, if a certain amount of haste would give a 90% proc chance to SoC, 9 out of 10 of your white swings would trigger SoC, 9 out of 10 of your Crusader Strikes would proc SoC, 9 out of 10 of your Judgements would trigger SoC, etc. So haste would scale SoC by the increase in proc chance multiplied by the number of abilities that can trigger it.

Of course, I could be perfectly wrong.

 

keano

Paladin

* Paladin T8 Retribution 2P Bonus -- Increases the damage done by your Exorcism and Hammer of Wrath abilities by 10%.
* Paladin T8 Retribution 4P Bonus -- Increases the critical strike chance of your Divine Storm and Crusader Strike abilities by 10%.

Paladin T8 Retribution Relic -- Increases the damage done by Divine Storm by 235.

Taken from MMO-champion.

I'm not down with the maths but none of those look particularly good to me, apart from maybe using that 2 piece bonus in Arena.

 

Eskostar

Damn, that's +45% damage to exorcism from glyph/sanctity of battle and 2piece set bonus, not to shabby, but we are yet to see the stats on the sets.
The 4p bonus might also be decent, specially if they add CS to the list of abilities proccing RV, but future calculations will give the verdict

 

Fiola

We've tested this before. [strike]PPM works as you've described it.[/strike]
edit: I need to slow down and read more carefully. The amount of haste does not affect the % proc chance per swing. That is set by your base weapon speed. Haste improves SoC proc rate by increasing the # of white swings that can proc it.


mmo-champion has new info up, with set bonuses.

# Paladin T8 Retribution 2P Bonus -- Increases the damage done by your Exorcism and Hammer of Wrath abilities by 10%.
# Paladin T8 Retribution 4P Bonus -- Increases the critical strike chance of your Divine Storm and Crusader Strike abilities by 10%.


I'm amused how many new bonuses we've got to Exorcism in one patch. Not sure if they stack multiplicatively, but that'd be +52% (45% if additive) from glyph+talent+T8 2pc bonus.

 

• Avitus

Those set bonuses are somewhat weak, but not completely terrible. I guess they're going the right way by making our weaker abilities more powerful while not making the bonuses too good so we can use more non-set items.

Haven't ran numbers yet, but first impression is that Libram is horrible as usual.


How many Exorcism buffs is that now? 10% set bonus, 15% talent and 20% glyph.

It should be multiplicative: 51.8%

 

Ernil

The new build 9704 has been updated on the MMO Champion`s website, and so far there are the only changes written in there. I might be to fast posting this, since there might be more to come soon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protection

* Spiritual Attunement has been removed from trainers and is now available in the Protection tree (Tier 7)

Retribution

* Swift Retribution now affects all auras.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It seems Exorcism is looking better by the second, however even all those buffs to the base damage of the ability is still very low compared to the loss we got with RV. Dont think buffing an ability by 50% (not the exactly correct amount i reckon) that we can use every 15 seconds will make up for the damage that we miss atm on PTR.

For single target DPS the libram wont account for much, but it might be different when and if there are adds around the boss or in similar situations. The 4 set bonus however looks quite decent. But i still have the felling that all that flat % bonus damage at the moment is only helping us in our burst damage and not that much in our stable dps on a single target.

Edit: My first post on these forums so please due excuse me for any mistakes i made while writting since english is not my native language.

 

beta4Life

I could be wrong about how PPM works in conjunction with strikes, however I am 99% sure that haste does not in any way effect the proc chance (the %), it instead increases the PPM by leaving the proc chance the same even though your weapon speed is lower (aka, more chances to proc * the same proc chance = higher PPM). I cannot even see a viable mathematical equation for haste to increase your % chance to proc a SoC, and the equation I used to explain the PPM increases makes perfect sense.

For reference the equation is basically:

{8.4/(60/weapon speed)}*{60/(weapon speed/1+haste)} = PPM

The first half is the proc chance (47.6%, which should remain unchanged by haste), the second half is how often you hit a target per minute modified by your haste.

I personally cannot see it, so if you can I would love for you to enlighten me as to how you could manipulate this equation so that haste could effect the proc chance per swing.


If I am correct, then your true PPM (assuming that strikes work independently) assuming there wasn't an ICD would be something along the lines of:

8.4 base + CS (10*.476) + DS (6*.476)+ JoC (8.6*.476) = 20.05 PPM with 0 haste. (or 18.65 if you add 1 second effective CD to each ability to be more in line with reality).

The only number you should be able to change to increase your PPM would be your base PPM by increasing your haste, the rest should remain unchanged.


edit: I accidentally added some BB code without realizing it which made the post ridiculous looking, fixed now though.

 

HamSlammer

Decent itemization, hooray!

10man Retribution T8


25man Retribution T8

 

Alleyra

Delete this please! HamSlammer beat me to it!

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

beta4Life

Oh good, T8 shoulders are a downgrade from T7, [Obsidian Greathelm] is vastly superior to the T8 helm. The chest, gloves, and pants are all decent at least, now we get to wait to see if CS is added to RV, if it is not I don't imagine ever wearing 4-piece T8.

It is about time we get to work crunching the numbers on these set bonus's I would say, gonna start personally with the 4-set, seeing as how from the looks of the quality of the pieces it is likely that the 4-set is going to need to do some work to overcome the the horrible helm and shoulders.

Hopefully Exemplar is around so he can work on some numbers as well, since I am sure his will be more accurate than mine.

 

Fiola

Quick notes from testing the new PTR build:
-RV partial resist bug is gone, but it still only deals 24% of your critical strike damage.

-The Crusade 3 % bonus (vs. humanoids/demons/undead/elementals) affects the RV damage. I'm getting 3% more RV damage than expecting on the mob types listed.

-Sacred Shield is absorbing 522 damage instead of 500 damage with 970~ SP from SoL. I'm not sure where the extra 22 absorb is coming from, as it doesn't seem to vary with my AP. (PvP <-> PvE gear, BoM)

 

Alleyra

Note the iLevel is 219. They probably don't reflect their real stat values.

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

HamSlammer

Keep in mind that's a picture of 10man T8 despite it saying Valorous (unless there's a new name for the 25man version). I'll update it when it's posted.

Above is updated. 10man T8 is Valorous, 25man is Conqueror.

 

flyingtoastr

Actually depending on how much hit rating is flying around the shoulders could be a pretty decent upgrade. Helm is... meh.

There's a ton of crit itemized onto it, kinda wonder if there's something else going on here (what with the bonus and all, given that crit is a pretty meh stat).

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

beta4Life

Ahh, ya I read Valorous and assumed 8.25, if it is 8 than it looks like we are in for some decent upgrades (the gloves, pants, and chest are incredible considering that is 8.10). The helm is going to take some pretty decent love to get over Obsidian Greathelm, assuming it has the same stats just in greater quantities.


That is true, however most of the offset I have seen (in fact I think all of it) has no hit at all on it. You definately are correct that the shoulders would be an upgrade if you are hit capped without them, but even then I would guess it is just barely (due to the extreme exorcism buffs, and the slightly higher value on hit even over the melee cap).



Edit:

I see the 8.25 stuff is up now, and the shoulders still disappoint, we are talking +6 str, + 52 haste, -39 hit, -3 crit versus 7.25. At best a side-grade to 7.25, and with the incoming likely buff to JotW which will increase the value of hit slightly, at least for longevity purposes, potentially a downgrade still.

 

whistler-z

Instead of comparing individual pieces, look at the total stats as a whole. Yeah, we lose hit on the shoulders (and helm, but nobody wears T7 helm anyway), but we also gain hit on the legs and chest.