The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 102

Fiola · 03/19/09, 12:01 AM

On the PPM discussion:

Base PPM is constant. Proc chance per swing is determined by base weapon speed. Haste increases the # of white swings but does not affect the proc chance per swing. Proc rate is # of swings times %proc chance. Thus, haste increases the proc rate. (effective PPM).

I think most of the confusion we have here is with the terminology. Proc rate (# of procs you see over time) is not the same as proc chance (% chance of a given weapon swing to proc the effect).

greatrichie · 03/19/09, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by beta4Life

That is true, however most of the offset I have seen (in fact I think all of it) has no hit at all on it.

You joking? Theres tons of off set pieces with hit. Neck off Hodir's hard mode, helm off Thorims hard mode(which is quite a bit better than pretty much anything i've seen), Belt off IC hard, etc. Theres quite abit of hit gear out there that will more than likely be best in slot. I really doubt we'll be hurting for hit.
In fact-
T8.25 Chest- 86 hit
T8.25 Legs- 66
Warhelm of the Champion- 69
Frigid Strength of Hodir- 47

268 hit from 4 pieces of gear that loosk so far to be what will be best in slot gear.

HamSlammer · 03/19/09, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

There's a ton of crit itemized onto it, kinda wonder if there's something else going on here (what with the bonus and all, given that crit is a pretty meh stat).

With how itemization works, Crit is very welcome comparatively. It seems from all the Ulduar gear, Hit cap seems easy to achieve with quality gear so the next best stat is going to be Crit.

The 2piece seems it'll be as good as if not better than the current 2piece (given, that's not very hard). Hopefully they allow CS to proc RV, then the 4piece will be quite good.

Originally Posted by beta4Life

Ahh, ya I read Valorous and assumed 8.25, if it is 8 than it looks like we are in for some decent upgrades (the gloves, pants, and chest are incredible considering that is 8.10). The helm is going to take some pretty decent love to get over Obsidian Greathelm, assuming it has the same stats just in greater quantities.

Obsidian Greathelm will likely be better than T8 unless you get Expertise cap else where (much like T8 shoulders and hit cap).

Aeonin · 03/19/09, 12:09 AM

"We'll discuss changing Divine Plea to just Flash of Light, Holy Light and Holy Shock."

Nice for those that use JoL on fights. Hopefully this gets implemented.
Thread

beta4Life · 03/19/09, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Fiola

On the PPM discussion:

Base PPM is constant. Proc chance per swing is determined by base weapon speed. Haste increases the # of white swings but does not affect the proc chance per swing. Thus, haste increases the proc rate. (effective PPM).

I think most of the confusion we have here is with the terminology. Proc rate (# of procs you see over time) is not the same as proc chance (% chance of a given weapon swing to proc the effect).

That is what I thought, but the way the other poster made it sound gave me a headache trying to figure out how it could possibly work the way he had mentioned it, so I had to post my reasoning. Thanks for the confirmation, I really hoped that PPM wasn't as complicated as it would have had to be if haste increase the proc chance.

As for the set bonus'

4-set looks to be about 1% dps increase for me, and if CS is added to RV it is ~1.3% (assuming I am doing the math correctly, which is why I would like to see what others are getting).

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

The 2piece seems it'll be as good as if not better than the current 2piece (given, that's not very hard). Hopefully they allow CS to proc RV, then the 4piece will be quite good.

It will definitely be better (exorcism does more damage than DS, and the HoW is a nice little bonus), for my PTR data I should see ~.9% dps increase from the 2-piece, in fact the 2-set is just behind the 4-piece (it is a bigger modifier, but to abilities that do a little less of your total damage).

Suicidal Zebra · 03/19/09, 12:23 AM

"Paladin T8 Retribution Relic -- Increases the damage done by Divine Storm by 235. " (Libram of Discord?).

I not sure how the %damage multipliers for specific skills interact with these sorts of Libram's, but assuming that this modifies the base damage of the attack (and is then multiplied by skills like Art Of War) am I right in thinking that this is actually worse than the Libram of Radiance?

HamSlammer · 03/19/09, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Suicidal Zebra

"Paladin T8 Retribution Relic -- Increases the damage done by Divine Storm by 235. " (Libram of Discord?).

I not sure how the %damage multipliers for specific skills interact with these sorts of Libram's, but assuming that this modifies the base damage of the attack (and is then multiplied by skills like Art Of War) am I right in thinking that this is actually worse than the Libram of Radiance?

Um, they basically work like you think they would. Naked, assuming Sanctity of Battle, Libram of Radiance adds:

115.5 * 1.1 * 1.15 = +146.1075 to CS, added every 6~ seconds. +24.35125 DPS to CS

Versus Libram of Discord (maybe):

235 * 1.1 = +258.5 to DS, added every 10~ seconds. +25.85 DPS DPS to DS. It'll be another ~2.5 DPS if you're rocking 2pieceT7. Even if the numbers were equal, I'd still bend to the DS Libram as DS Crits = RV ticks. Also, it's superior for any AoE spot.

As a side gripe, I'd rather our Libram be like the Feral one. Your DS/CS/Exo/Judgements have a chance to increase Strength by X for Y sec. Or a closer version of the PvP one.

Lastly, as a request, can someone provide me a link the math comparing the PvP libram and the Naxx25 Libram? And if it's been done, how they compare in 3.1 when you take into account the Sanctified Seals change.

beta4Life · 03/19/09, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

Um, they basically work like you think they would. Naked, assuming Sanctity of Battle, Libram of Radiance adds:

115.5 * 1.1 * 1.15 = +146.1075 to CS, added every 6~ seconds. +24.35125 DPS to CS

Versus Libram of Discord (maybe):

235 * 1.1 = +258.5 to DS, added every 10~ seconds. +25.85 DPS DPS to DS. It'll be another ~2.5 DPS if you're rocking 2pieceT7. Even if the numbers were equal, I'd still bend to the DS Libram as DS Crits = RV ticks.

As a side gripe, I'd rather our Libram be like the Feral one. Your DS/CS/Exo/Judgements have a chance to increase Strength by X for Y sec. Or a closer version of the PvP one.

You left out a 10% multiplier on CS, should be 115.5 *1.1(CS)*1.1(AoW)*1.15(Sanctity of Battle) = 160.7 or 26.7 dps, which would make it better than the new libram (before taking into acount RV which could push it over).

Attempt at DS + RV with libram:

235 *1.1 + {crit rate*.3*235} = (using 45% crit) 290.225 or 29 dps.

edit: If anyone has the CS libram they could check it on the PTR and tell us, to see if we are correct in how it works, one has never dropped in our Naxx runs.

HamSlammer · 03/19/09, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by beta4Life

You left out a 10% multiplier on CS

It's already baked into the base value of it. My suspicion is that the Libram actually gives +105 to CS and the 110% weapon damage brings it to +115.5 as it's odd for Blizzard to have straight damage values not rounded down.

On Live, it's +127.05.

beta4Life · 03/19/09, 1:05 AM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

It's already baked into the base value of it. My suspicion is that the Libram actually gives +105 to CS and the 110% weapon damage brings it to +115.5 as it's odd for Blizzard to have straight damage values not rounded down.

On Live, it's +127.05.

That makes sense, it would be pretty odd for it to be 115.5 base, I just kind of assumed that wowhead would have it without the CS modifier added in. None have dropped for me, and it was clear to me that the gladiator libram was better so I haven't really spent any time looking at or thinking about it.

In that case the DS libram is the clear winner, but honestly you could go without a libram at all and not notice it, they are both so terrible.

On an unrelated note, I started a thread on the damage dealing forums about the RV bug that still remains (24% modifier instead of 30%) in hopes of getting this issue fixed sooner rather than later, so if anyone would like to add anything, or just help keep it on the first page for a couple days to ensure GC gets a chance to read it here it is:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> RV Bug and Build 9704

Also Arrent, the Gladiator libram was actually buffed on the PTR to 10 second duration (from 6 on live).

As for the math on it, it should go something like:

120 AP = 8.57 DPS, which should increase your average weapon damage by 29 (for a 3.4 speed weapon).

29 more weapon damage would give you:

+6.73 CS DPS
+3.19 DS DPS
+8.57 white DPS
+5.52 Judgment(blood) DPS
+1.12 SoB dps
+.624 Consecrate DPS
+2.15 exo dps
=27.9 DPS

For RV damage you would take the extra DS and Judgment damage * your crit * .3 should be ~ 1.1 or so.

That is before unleashed rage, which should add ~10% more damage putting it a little over 30 dps.

flyingtoastr · 03/19/09, 1:23 AM

Assuming a 7.5 second effective cooldown for CS the PvP libram gives you an average of 96 attack power. That translates to roughly 41 damage for Divine Storm, 57 damage for CS, 52 damage for Consecration, 45 damage on Judgement, 28 damage on Exorcism, and a varriable amount on autoswings (depending on weapon speed). Of course this doesn't count RV either. Point remains, the PvP libram is still better, though not by huge amounts.

Also remember that the libram is losing the personal rating requirement with the start of Season 6, so getting it is as trivial as playing 10 arena games for 2 weeks.

And check my math because it's midnight and I just had another week with 2x fucking Vanquisher from Sarth.

• frmorrison · 03/19/09, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Assuming a 7.5 second effective cooldown for CS the PvP libram gives you an average of 96 attack power. That translates to roughly 41 damage for Divine Storm, 57 damage for CS, 52 damage for Consecration, 45 damage on Judgement, 28 damage on Exorcism, and a variable amount on autoswings (depending on weapon speed). Of course this doesn't count RV either. Point remains, the PvP libram is still better, though not by huge amounts.

Also remember that the libram is losing the personal rating requirement with the start of Season 6, so getting it is as trivial as playing 10 arena games for 2 weeks.

The PvP libram will last for 10 seconds in 3.1, so that is 120 AP sustained (except on a heavy movement fight). It isn't by far the best, but it will remain the best. Also note S6 will have another Libram giving more AP.

• Karakas · 03/19/09, 2:44 AM

Has anyone datamined out an upgraded S6 version of the PVP libram? or I'm guessing they're not in the data files yet.

Aarn · 03/19/09, 6:12 AM

Is it only me that is looking towards Protection two piece combined with Retribution two piece?
Looking at 10% more Seal damage at the expense of 10% Crit chance from CS and DS?
Looking at the different slot piece there are a few from the Prot set that gives more strength but of course at the loss of Crit.
Haven't done any numbers but it's just a first impression after looking at the sets.

And btw... 10-man white version looks so much better.

beta4Life · 03/19/09, 6:29 AM

Prot 2-piece would only have a shot at being better than using 2 more ret pieces if it applies to the seal and judgment damage. The wording makes it sounds like it won't effect the judgment which would make it ~1.5% dps upgrade, which is only slightly better than the ret 4-piece, and likely not enough to warrant the loss in stats by using 2 tanking pieces.

Cavemanz · 03/19/09, 7:19 AM

Another build with no ret changes, this is looking worse by the day :/

OnTheHissay · 03/19/09, 7:34 AM

Yeah and with all the buffs to Exo, which won't mean much for PvE, they're lining us up for nerfs in the name of PvP. So we'll be even worse off.

Nicki · 03/19/09, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemanz

Another build with no ret changes, this is looking worse by the day :/

Righteous Vengeance got bug fixed but its still rather bad from 1% of damage done -> 2.5%~ (Considering Death knight talents of the same tier provide 10% damage bonuses and expertise/armor pen) and it does around 10% on live (unbuffed for live on ptr had might, flask, food and curse of shadows).

And ye 10 man set looks WAY better than 25 man again!

But im actually interested in the fact that the new tier set wont compensate t7.5 4 set and that will be a pretty big hit on dps and mana. Mana currently is yet again a major concern (general vezax as said was basically a 3 button rotation going oom anyway...).

Prinsesa · 03/19/09, 7:50 AM

Originally Posted by beta4Life

Prot 2-piece would only have a shot at being better than using 2 more ret pieces if it applies to the seal and judgment damage. The wording makes it sounds like it won't effect the judgment which would make it ~1.5% dps upgrade, which is only slightly better than the ret 4-piece, and likely not enough to warrant the loss in stats by using 2 tanking pieces.

Comparing the 10-man pieces:

Chest:     Same STR            Blue+Red tank socket   Yellow+Yellow DPS socket 81 hit       53 crit
Legs:      11 more STR on tank Red+Yellow tank socket Red+Blue DPS socket      62 hit       76 crit
Shoulders: 1 less STR on tank  Red tank socket        Yellow DPS socket                     52 crit 48 haste
Head:      Same STR            Yellow tank socket     Red DPS socket                        65 crit 60 haste
Gloves:    1 less STR on tank  Red tank socket        Blue DPS socket          38 expertise 56 crit

Depending on how the set bonus does work out, this idea might actually have some merit, given how close the STR values are (and how low haste and crit are valued).

Remember that our T4 pieces once specifically locked out Seal of Command, ostensibly for fear of this happening, and that was when Prot Paladin itemization was much, much worse for Ret.

Teleros · 03/19/09, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cavemanz

Another build with no ret changes, this is looking worse by the day :/

I just wish they'd get around to sorting out JotW and gave us something to put our spare talent points in. ATM I'm looking at something like this as my spec (you may not want SoC or decide to swap the Exorcism glyph with the HoW one): Ret build 9704. There's very little out there in Prot and Holy worth taking (for DPS purposes) IMHO.

• Zurm · 03/19/09, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Depending on how the set bonus does work out, this idea might actually have some merit, given how close the STR values are (and how low haste and crit are valued).

You're carrying around your pre-3.1 perceptions of those stats. Hit, crit, haste, expertise, and armor pen all have approximately equal value in 3.1 due to the buffs to haste and ArP (the expertise change was reverted)

In a more rant-oriented topic, not only are T8 bonuses regen "nerf", they aren't that good. Currently we have 1 second off judgements which is what, a 12.5% dps boost for one ability. Lets say a DPS breakdown is as follows for a typical dps cycle:

24% melee
20% judgement
13% seal
12% RV
9% CS
9% Consec
5% DS
4% HoW
4% Exor
1% Holy Wrath

This is WITH the 12.5% judgement bonus, so reverse engineering it with napkin math we can put the judgement bonus at a ~2.3% total dps gain (putting judgement at 17.7%). The 2pc comes out to ~.45% dps gain.

The new 2pc, based on this, is worth (4*1.1) + (4*1.1) = ~.8% dps gain (better than old 2pc). The new 4pc is a bit harder to calculate. Lets assume a 40% base crit rate in raids for these abilities...the new bonus will put them at 50%.
Lets assume average non-crit CS = 2.5k, DS = 2.2k (perhaps a bit low).

CS:

old expected dmg = .6*2.5k + (2*.4*2.5k) = 1.5 + 2 = 3.5k
new expected dmg = .5*2.5k + (2*.5*2.5k) = 3.75k
Or a ~7.1% gain

DS:

old expected dmg = .6*2.2k + (2*.4*2.2k) = 1.32 + 1.76 = 3.08k
new expected dmg = .5*2.2k + (2*.5*2.2k) = 3.3k
Also a ~7.1% gain

So, a 7.1% gain for 9% and 4.55% of our dps is a total of (9.639% + 4.873 - 13.55 = .96% gain for our new 4pc. Lets not forget, however, that a good chuck of seal procs come from CS/DS, lets say for the sake of arguement that 40% of them do. Now we get another 13*.4 = 5.2 --> 5.569 or another .369% dps.

So for totals we have:

T7:

2.3 + .45 = 2.75%

T8:

.8 + .96 + .37 = 2.13%

TL;DR Version/Conclusion:

While we will likely have higher stats with T8, the relative values of the tier bonuses have a significant difference, with T8 being worse than T7. THIS DOES NOT MEAN T7 WILL BE BIS IN ULDUAR, SIMPLY THAT THE BONUSES AREN"T AS GOOD BETWEEN TIERS. Also my napkin math might be a bit off.

Also, why did they make the ugly set 25 man and the cool set 10 man (color-wise)?

Exemplar · 03/19/09, 11:07 AM

Preliminary 3.1 version of Bellator spreadsheet available for download. This version is not valid for 3.0.9.

Download here

It contains the following changes from 3.0.9 version (in no particular order):
Boss armour, Sunder and Faerie Fire changes.
BoW and Mana Spring collapsed to 1 buff.
Raid spellcrit buff reduced to 5%.
Blood Frenzy/Savage Combat up to 4% increase.

RV no longer double-dips buffs.
Sanctity of Battle modeled.
Talent collapses.
No SA.
Melee haste is 30% better. (divide by rating then multiply by 130%)
ArmPen is 25% better. (divide by rating then multiply by 125%)
Undocumented, but exists - Expertise is 25% better. (divide by rating then multiply by 125%)
Exo auto-crit on undead, valid on all targets.

SoR glyph increased to 30%.
Exo glyph for +20% damage.

Also added T8 Retribution sets and modeling for set bonuses. When I input all the Ulduar gear I'll add Prot set as well so people can examine its set bonuses if desired.

Please download and test the new set bonuses yourselves. I'm not going to try to issue a blanket T8 2 or 4 is x% better then T7 as it is highly gear dependant. It does appear that T8 2 piece is better than preserving T7 4 piece, so at least that's not a broken mechanic. At a rough glance it looks like hat is still the best slot to have non-set even if you do pick up 4 piece - Obsidian Greathelm beats Aegis Helms, I would hope Ulduar hats are also good.

Zurm's napkin math sounds about right at a glance at the end results. I think T8 is better than T7, but most of that is the items' higher iLevels and therefore itemization, the bonuses are not as significant.

Random thought of the day:
It's 2nd tier of content, do we expect lame class-only trinkets? Or have they been datamined? I don't keep up with loot.

Edit:
Heavy agreement with Zurm - 25man is Rainbow Brite! 10man is smooth, although I'd always figured white for Holy and Red for Ret, myself.

Cavemanz · 03/19/09, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

Undocumented, but exists - Expertise is 25% better. (divide by rating then multiply by 125%)

They changed this back to how it works on live currently.

On the trinkets, theres at least a nice hit trinket for us this time around. Its from 10man ulduar I believe.
Basically improved Mirror with hit instead of crit.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...einfuserv2.jpg

rldolph79 · 03/19/09, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

And check my math because it's midnight and I just had another week with 2x fucking Vanquisher from Sarth.

Sorry to derail, but this comment sounds very familiar. In the last 7 weeks we have seen 13 Vanquisher tokens off Sarth. Random loot is random? Sure doesn't seem like it.

As far as our set bonuses are concerned you have to wonder what they're thinking buffing Exorcism like they are. Ret ranged burst is quickly going to get out of hand. The whining from locks and DKs as we auto-crit destroy their pets from across the room is going to be deafening.

Rammurg · 03/19/09, 11:53 AM

Glyph of Seal of Righteousness is 10% on the PTR in the latest build.

Guess they weren't fine with SoR ending up beating SoC in terms of Ret DPS. Which would also make one assume they have no plans to improve SoC.