Already mathed quite adequately, but I updated the preliminary 3.1 spreadsheet (link). I've even got it sitting down at the mana regen mechanics (bottom of Character tab) so people don't have to hunt. If you want to do these tests yourself, manually set Consecration to an 8 or 8.25 effective cooldown - I never modeled without the glyph because in 3.0.9 it's a no brainer.

8 Second Judgement, Cons Glyph (no SoB Glyph)

Composition	Holy Wrath	Rough Time to OOM
Solo	Yes	83 seconds
5man	Yes	104-120 seconds
25man	Yes	232 seconds
Solo	No	125 seconds
5man	No	166-236 seconds
25man	No	778 seconds

5man I used external buffs of only Arcane Int, then only BoW/Mana Spring to model.
A runic mana pot moves 25man w/Holy Wrath from 232 to 360 - 6 minutes.

8 Second Judgement, SoB Glyph (no Cons Glyph)

Composition	Holy Wrath	Rough Time to OOM
Solo	Yes	82 seconds
5man	Yes	104-119 seconds
25man	Yes	363 seconds
Solo	No	118 seconds
5man	No	155-211 seconds
25man	No	10693 seconds

No, I did not miss a decimal place in that very last. Net was -0.7 mana per second.

Obviously the SoB glyph will continue to scale (more DPS, more recoil, more mana) with gear. This extremely rough comparison is done with 3.0.x gear, not 3.1 gear.

SoB Glyph gets between about 25 and 35 more mana per second.
Consecrate every 10 seconds is 87 mana per second, every 8 is 109 mana per second, a difference of 20 mana per second. As you can see, this eats a lot of the SoB gain.

Mana is bearable with or without SoB glyph, a single potion or a self-LoH (or both) extremely extends a fight. 2 minutes for a 5man boss and 5+ min for 25man boss. Add some movement or non-DPS time and it extends further.

Analysis:
I'd be forced to say, SoB does give some greater time to OOM, but it's probably not worth it. Recasting Consecration more frequently eats a lot of this gain (about 20 mana per second). Also on movement fights that's 2 less seconds your Consecrate would hit while you run away. Dropping Exo or Judgement glyph instead is mana regen at loss of DPS - not viable.

I hope our mana regen isn't balanced assuming we're using SoB and Consecration glyphs and 7 second Judgements (though I have a bad feeling).

TLDR: It's not infinite mana either way. I think we're best glyphed Judgement, Consecration, Exorcism - SoB glyph doesn't have enough value added.

I have to believe that the glyph change band-aid wont last long, I mean, this solution makes our regen mechanics even more convoluted than it was before. All they need to do is increase LOTW up to ~33% rather than make a glyph change that we will be dependent on.

25% JotW is more than fine.

In a fully buffed 25-man raiding situation your rotation will be mana-positive until you reach 20% (hammer of wrath will be the ability tipping the scales).
Yes, that is assuming an 8 second judgement cooldown.

Most likely, SoB glyph will be useful in situations where you either have limited mana regen or are facing opposition with some kind of mana drain ability (General Vezax hard-mode comes to mind)

Kapele, I was just thinking about that as well. The extra 2 secs on consecration could work in your favor too though. For example, imagine you just casted your 8 secs consecration for the 2nd time, and 2 secs into it, you and the boss gotta move. This would result in a 6 secs loss of that consecration.


Another thing i have in mind is that, without glyphs (and t7), we have 8 secs cd on both judgement and consecration. These 2, if one followed by the other, would never clash.

I wonder if we prioritise CS > Judgement > Consecration > DS > Exorcism would work. CS would have to come 1st, before judgement, otherwise it would come after consecration and we would be delaying it too much.

We would delay judgement + consecration by 1.5 secs every 30 secs or so (or 1 judgement every 2 min ---> this is a rough estimate, feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong - it's 4am here and i have not modeled it for too long). This could potentially decrease our dps a bit. On the other hand, the gladiator libram will be much easier to get, CS is geting buffed and it's also affecting RV, maybe prioritising CS isnt such a bad idea.

Regen wouldnt be an issue (even missing out on a judgement every now and then), because we would have the SoB glyph and would also cast one less consecration every 2 min (again, rough estimate).

For progression, what im proposing, if it works, is to use glyph of SoB, judgement and Exorcism, with rotation prioritising CS > Judgement > Consecration > DS > Exorcism. For Sub 20%, with HoW thrown in there, cd clashes will happen much more often, so probably go with HoW > Judgement > CS > Consecration > DS > Exorcism

Feel free to criticise or comment on any of it... this is just an idea (instinct), i havent done any actual simulation with it just yet.

Random thought:
Glyph of Seal of Blood will become a PvP glyph. SoB is already used for more damage in PvP, the fact that it generates mana for other abilities is also a benefit. (Edit: Obviously swapped for Consecration, as Cons is near useless in PvP - you still have the Judge and Exo burst glyphs).

Banka - I do not see positive mana, I just see a smaller negative mana. Positive mana would mean infinite time to OOM - you generate more than you use. This does not occur even before HoW.

Oh, and my numbers above didn't include HoW mana costs.

25% is not "more than fine." It is, however, "good enough."

I know we're focusing in on utilizing the 3 "DPS" Glyphs versus sacking one for SoB. There have been a few references to our DPS being low, (aka only using DPS Glyphing) which certainly is a problem: but I'm skeptical Blizzard would allow us to be so underpowered in 3.1. Regardless, assuming mana is going to be a problem, we need some real definition on Glyphing. Dropping the Consecrate Glyph seems like the obvious choice, but given the clashing it may create it could possibly result in a net loss on damage. It could be far more beneficial to drop the extra 20% damage from Exorcism.

It may be wise to do some comparative analysis between using SoB/Consecrate/Judgement vs SoB/Exorcism/Judgement.

For those still worried about parsing and our sustainability: this build is a great time to submit those WWS parses and convey our concerns. Now that we see some actual changes directed in our direction, we have an even better platform to stand on addressing their changes. (or lack thereof.)

I certainly agree. I think we are all aware of my sentiment on the matter. (if not: see my signature.) For example: I don't understand why JotW wasn't just buffed to 30% and then given some utility functionality to the SoB Glyph. It's like taking one step back in losing SA, and then taking a step forward, but stepping in dog crap. (SoB Glyph) But those are the cards we have been dealt for the moment.

But we do need to remain analytical, as a community. As stated: this is a great time to provide feedback supported by hard numbers. (I know some of you are doing this -- keep it up!) Our changes are here and this is the opportunity to provide real feedback versus speculation and theory. We can't just run around pouting, screaming, "We got screwed!" without showing Blizzard why.

Didn't see it mentioned in the last several pages, but any thoughts of experimenting down this route are probably moot now, unless there is still any serious consideration to running Righteousness as a DPS Seal.

As for the Blood recoil and the new Glyph, I am curious about something. Does damage absorbed by Sacred Shield still count towards the damage done for regen purposes? If so, would ensuring that Sacred Shield is up in order to blunt our self burst potential a viable offset? My understanding is we can't trigger the shield via our own damage, but given what I've been reading there are enough AE boss effects to have a reasonable chance that the shield will be active.

This all assumes of course that scaling for our SS is fixed.

After doing some test dummy testing on PTR, what I've found is that Glyph of Seal of Blood is a great replacement to Judgement of Wisdom. If I wasn't going to have more than one Paladin in the raid (say for 10 man), I'd use Glyph of Blood and Judge light. If I did have more than one reliably judging Paladin in the raid, I'd swap out Blood for Consecrate.

I did all sorts of testing permutations: Blood w/o Glyph and JoW, Blood w/o Glyph and JoL, Blood w/ Glyph and JoW and Blood w/ Glyph and JoL. I also tested Seal of Command w/ JoW and SoC glyph. All the Bloods came in around 4000 DPS on the test dummy. BoM was my only buff, no other buffs. Seal of Command came in around 450-350 DPS lower, glyphed. That was disappointing. Each test ran for 7 minutes. On no permutation did I go out of mana on the test dummy.

Blood Glyph + Wisdom is just a lot of mana regen. However, what really interested me was Blood Glyph + JoLight. My mana wasn't quite sustainable (but I did go 7 minutes and could've kept going). Judgement of Light alone was sufficient to keep me nearly topped off, and the glyph provided decent mana regen. I tossed 2 FoLs over the course of the 7 minutes, but it was more to see if my mana could maintain it. Even the act of dropping one consecrate every minute was enough to go back up significantly in mana. On one test, I switched to JoW midway through, and became net positive on the training dummy.

Glyph of Blood struck me as similar to having light AND wisdom on the boss. Judge light, get the regen from glyph, and light keeps you up to the point where Holy Light splash, or Chain Heal splash DOES top you off. Does it suck that you lose Consecration glyph and it's modicum of DPS increase? Sure, but many many fights are not tank and spank. When to use Consecrate on a lot of fights isn't simply "when it's up." If you've got the healers to keep you up without Light, in a situation where you're the only Judger, then you have a raid comp capable of letting you do your max DPS with consecration glyph.

I'm one of the biggest proponents of removing recoil, and the belief that we should be just as much DPS as other classes. I'm just not sure that glyph of consecration is a +DPS on every fight, so perhaps Glyph of Blood is not, in fact, a DPS loss.

Just wanted to share some anecdotal experience to complement the numbers.

Has anyone detailed exactly how much DPS we lose by not using Glyph of Consecration? I've been trying to determine this for a bit but haven't been able to properly model a FCFS for any period of time, and what little testing I can do on the PTR hasn't given me anything conclusive. (Since, as I understand it the primary reason why consecrate glyph increases our DPS isn't because of better mana efficiency, but rather because it evens out our rotation more)

Which takes me to another point I have. Personally, I primarily just raid 10 mans (due more to who my friends are and what their goals in wow are, rather than a lack of desire on my part), and to go along with this I rarely, if ever, have all the buffs that improve mana efficiency (for example, while I tend to have AI, I almost never have improved wisdom - or soon to be improved mana spring - or Kings [Only paladin and no warrior so I tend to use Might]). I know it isn't right to make direct comparisons to other classes (as different mechanics lead to different situations) but it just feels iffy that in order for a ret paladin to get by with max DPS (presuming glyph of cons is actually a significant upgrade), I need every major raid buff, where-as enhancement (and every other melee spec) have unlimited resources regardless of raid comp (post 3.1 with the new SS at least). I could just be ranting at nothing however. (Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that they want us to have more or less unlimited mana while DPSing, it feels that their method penalizes people who primarily raid in 10 mans, leaving ret with a distinct disadvantage in that field.)


Another thing I haven't seen brought up with the recent changes is that presuming Blizzard doesn't add in more talents to increase DPS in the trees, doesn't ret have more than enough space to pick up divine intellect? Wouldn't that have an effect in regen from DP and replenishment? Or are people just assuming that before 3.1 goes live, ret will have more options for DPS talents?

Given that a BElf paladin has 102 int, 15% bonus on that even with AI, and mark will still be a tiny boost to mana. Perhaps in your anecdotal case it is needed, but in general it shouldn't. While Paladins might be shafted a bit harder than others for not having all the manabuffs we could use, most classes suffer from bad stacking of raids as well.

I think Divine Intellect is only worth picking up if we have int on our gear, and we don't.

However, pending the final trees in 3.1 I guess we'll see. I was actually looking at getting Divine Sacrifice with my extra points just to add utility. I am not sure if that part of the Prot tree is done yet though. I am usually very hesitant to get stuck on how I am going to spec until things go live to avoid disappointment =p

Using Seal of Command and Judgement of Wisdom + Divine Plea this morning on the PTR was sufficient to keep me going somewhat indefinitely.

The value of glyph of blood will be proven thru testing via the particulars of a boss encounter, not via numbers alone.

Just to get an idea of how costly consecration is, with 5k AP, dropping 1 consecration per minute reduces mana expenditure by 14 mps (70.25 mp5) at the expense of 62 dps glyphed or 50 dps unglyphed. Using the same numbers, i'm getting the exorcism glyph adding 42 dps (I can't remember if it's a 1.5x crit multiplier or a 2x multiplier. For a 2x crit multiplier it's 49 dps). Basically, if you ever miss a consecration because of mana, then the blood glyph is superior damage than the exorcism glyph.

As for the glyph replacing JoW, that's true for us personally, but for the raid JoW is probably going to be necessary. If you're always running with a second paladin, then great, but if you're running solo then the raid is going to be screaming for JoW. That only really matters for 10 mans as in 25, having at least two paladins (including yourself) is a pretty good assumption.

Regarding recoil, it's fine for 25 man, we just need to make sure that we keep JoL (which we should anyway, ours is better) up and let the holy/prot pallies judge wis. It's going to be a problem in 10 mans as we will probably need to use JoW.

So, ok in 5 mans (fights don't last long enough for JoW to be a factor), not so good in 10 mans and balanced in 25 mans?

Oookay. Back to the mana regen and whether or not 25% JoTW is going to "cut it" for raiding.

I think I've figured out where the difference in mine and Exemplar's numbers come from. It has to do with assigning differing values to JoW MPS (and that difference is quite huge)

I checked the logs of my last 3 raids and singled out 4 bosses where I have near 100% of my DPS time meleeing the boss and thus getting the most out of JoW proc mana returns.
My numbers were these

Patch 4/3 DPS time 123 procs 66 5802 mana MPS: 47.17
Patch 12/3 DPS time 133 procs 71 6240 mana MPS: 46.92
Patch 19/3 DPS time 173 procs 92 8087 mana MPS: 46.75
Gluth 4/3 DPS time 146 procs 63 5533 mana MPS: 37.90
Gluth 12/3 DPS time 152 procs 70 6148 mana MPS: 44.45
Gluth 19/3 DPS time 178 procs 83 7292 mana MPS: 40.97
Thaddius 4/3 DPS time 185 procs 101 8877 mana MPS: 47.98
Thaddius 12/3 DPS time 193 procs 102 8963 mana MPS: 46.44
Thaddius 19/3 DPS time 244 procs 108 9495 mana MPS: 40.98
Razuvious 4/3 DPS time 108 procs 44 3866 mana MPS: 35.80
Razuvious 12/3 DPS time 123 procs 64 5622 mana MPS: 45.71
Razuvious 19/3 DPS time 151 procs 74 6498 mana MPS: 43.03

The interesting number to look at is MPS: effective mana per second.
This is somewhat skewed in all these fights, since I'm having a very high uptime of bloodlust. Most likely the real numbers on a longer fight will be a bit lower, and the ammount of samples are nowhere near enough to confidently say where that actual number would be.
Still, this is a much higher mana return than what is suggested in most calculations (when reaching the conclusion that the >20% rotation would be mana-positive even with the 8sec judgement rotation, I used 33 MPS as my number for JoW)

Unless the proc rate of JoW is different on test than it is on live, I am very confident in saying that a 25% JoTW proc rate will be enough to sustain a full DPS rotation come 3.1, even when losing out on the 4-part T7 bonus, assuming of course that you have all raid buffs

Two problems:

-It would only keep you alive if the recoil lands *after* some other source of damage that would kill you. So, AOE damage then recoil = 1 health. Recoil then AOE damage = you die.

-The analogy to life tap is inexact. Life tap spends health as a resource (like mana). Recoil damages you after you use the attack, the amount it hits for is unknown before you press the button.

Off the top of my head, a solution short of removing recoil would be to make it a percentage of current health, in some form. Perhaps 33% of damage caused, but no more than 25% of current health. Several abilities are currently limited by maximum health in this manner. Note that this would prevent recoil from killing you, and it prevents absurd recoil numbers on gimmick fights, but it does nothing to alleviate the larger problem: lower effective maximum HP leading to decreased survivability against raid AOE or random single target damage.

They no longer have an extra glyph slot, it would be too good. They new just have their own shoulder enchants.

I did some testing on the PtR last night and decided to give the Seal of blood glyph a try. It seemed to me that the mana regen looked very good overall even while using JoL. The only problem was, as soon as i got to the 20% mark (aka started using HoW) i went OOM within less than a minute.

The other thing i tested was our judgements Vs. Shields, such as a priests shield or a paladins sacred shield. It seems that we are still receiving no mana back when our judgements are absorbed. While this could become quite a problem in pvp, I'm wondering if it will have any pve impacts as well?

If they are giving warriors the ability to gain rage off of these shield absorbs, it would seem only fair to allow our JoTW to reap the benefits as well, especially seeing how it is 25% back and for the most part is our only source of mana return in a pvp scenario.

You probably aren't going to be consecrating [much] in a PvP scenario, meaning you're gonna be mana positive anyway. It is a good point, however, and I think something that should be brough up in the damage dealing forum (not necessarily as a bug, but rather asking them if that's the intended mechanic).

I'm still interested as to what they plan to do with CS. Reading between the lines in GC's post, it seems like Blizz wants to give us something extra to CS, but more PvE oriented rather than PvP. I look forward to the next PTR build to see what they have.

I did some JoW testing recently (results posted in the pally forums here on EJ). The result of the testing was JoW is a 15 ppm ability (it's definitely 15 ppm for melee attacks and it looks like it's 15 ppm for instants and casts). Therefore, assuming that JoW procs on the first tick of consecration and adding 0.5 to all the cds for FCFS clashing, (don't know if that's true but it's an upper bound) we should expect about 39 mps from JoW. If consecration doesn't proc JoW, then it's about 36 mps. I'm not sure of the effect of haste on JoW but it either has no effect or it increases the amount gained from JoW.

I'm bad.

Oh, look at this recurring theme...

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] S. Shield still not scaling with Sheath

Edit: Clarity

You're confused as well. It's both.

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