I just wanna get this idea of how RV works in my head so I make sure I fully understand what you mean about the recalculation of the DoT in the following example:
You crit with A for 6k - you have an RV of 1800 over 8 secs (440 per tick)
after the first tick, crit with B for 4k occurs, a RV of 1200 over 8 secs (300 per tick)
Now, there are three ways I can perceive of this "stacking/rolling":
1 - the remaining 1360 damage of A is added to the 1200 of B, for a total of 2560, and then does that over 8 secs (640 per tick).
2 - the total damage of A is added to the total damage of B for 3000, for a tick of 750.
3 - the tick (440) of damage A and the tick (300) of damage B is added together, (for 740) doing this each tick over 8 secs.
Just so that I can make sure i understand what you are saying, just confirm which of these is how it works. If anything, I think defining how this works will remove any/all confusion people have over the talent.
It works like number 1, it recalculates the remaining damage and then spreads it out over the next 8 seconds. So basically it does "roll" the damage forward if it is not allowed to tick to completion, however, it does not increase the damage the way old school rolling ignites did.
Now that that is cleared up, I have actually noticed an RV bug where it is doing more damage than it is supposed to.
48:55 Judgment crit for 4854
48:58 RV tick for 364
49:00 DS crit for 3498
49:00 RV tick for 365 <----- "free" damage
49:02 RV tick for 536
49:04 RV tick for 535
49:06 RV tick for 536
49:08 RV tick for 535
Expected RV damage in total : 2505.6
Actually RV damage in total: 2871
Difference: 365.4
So the anomaly here is plain to see, if RV ticks at the exact time a new RV is calculated (due to a crit from CS, DS, judge), RV will recalculate the damage under the assumption that the damage hasn't been "spent" yet, and you will get a free extra RV tick.
This has some fairly real implications, if this situation proves to be reproducible it would mean that we may want to delay our abilities an extra .5 seconds in order to have a shot at taking advantage of the server-client lag.
edit: If Arikah reads these last two posts, I do think it would be a decent idea to put the example Cerakona used with numbers in the first post, as there does seem to be a decent amount of confusion on how exactly RV works, and a few numbers are actually a little easier to understand then an explanation with words (at least in my opinion).
I would cut the post like this to make it as simple and easy to understand as possible:
Originally Posted by Cerakona
You crit with A for 6k - you have an RV of 1800 over 8 secs (440 per tick)
after the first tick, a crit with B for 4k occurs, an RV of 1200 over 8 secs (300 per tick)
the remaining 1360 damage of A is added to the 1200 of B, for a total of 2560, and then does that over 8 secs (640 per tick).
Ran another test, just to attempt to reproduce the earlier occurrence:
22:25 CS crit for 4151
22:28 RV tick for 312
22:30 RV tick for 311
22:31 Judgement crit for 5176
22:33 CS crit for 4381
22:34 RV tick for 543
22:36 RV tick for 736
22:38 RV tick for 737
22:40 RV tick for 736
22:42 RV tick for 737
Expected RV damage: 4112
Actual RV damage: 4112
Failed (trying to reproduce this is actually quite difficult, and checking for it takes a decent amount of time).
The game is able to calculate RV damage very quickly and I jumped the gun on the second CS by a fraction of a second. Ideally you would need to land the second crit at almost exactly the same time as a crit (and it may actually work better with DS since when DS hits the game has more stuff it has to calculate, you will notice in the earlier screenshots the RV tick occurred between when the DS landed and the heal went off).
I will continue to see if I can get it to work, and I would encourage a few others to try it out, if you do manage to get a ghost RV tick (which is what I am going to start calling the freebies), I would very much appreciate some screenshots, to see exactly how it went down. Oh and a quick note if you are going to attempt to reproduce, I find that the first RV tick normally appears ~3 seconds after the crit that caused it instead of 2(wish the combat log showed tenths of a second).
We had to nerf Ret pretty quickly after Lich King launched, and it was pretty devastating to a lot of paladins, who let us know that in no uncertain terms.
If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
Please don't take that to mean that we will keep you down on purpose. That's not what I meant.
Last night my guild killed the new boss in Vault of Archavon (name escapes me)... while it did require a lot of movement/target switching so I can't be sure of the same results on patchwerk-esq bosses, I had no mana issues... not even close. And that was WITHOUT the SoB glyph.
Yes, it's anecdotal evidence, but I actually placed higher emphases on DS/CS due to multiple targets, and lower on judgements. My fears about our mana problems are alleviated, so I just hope they turn to our damage (hopefully by buffing some combination of cs, ds, or exorcism).
Teleros, that post by GC is actually comforting. It tells me they are aware of some of our complaints. That, along with the following: (source)
We will look at sacrificing some Stamina for Strength on the dps gear that has both stats for 3.1. We can't make any promises.
Plus, if we end up doing this, we may have to end up nerfing plate dps in other places, but we'll see what the numbers look like first.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I think a Bladed Armour/Armoured to the Teeth equivalent would be nice to definitively drive us away from Mail and Leather unless they're insanely better itemized.
I'd considered something like "Wisdom of the Aegis" placed around 3rd tier Prot. Make it give some MP5 and spellpower from armour (for every X armour value you gain Y MP5 and Z spellpower). It helps balance the mana regen issues of Ret (not everything tied to JotW) and the spellpower may not be great for Ret or Prot, but it does increase DPS. It also gives Holy the choice to dive into Prot or Ret if they want spellpower/MP5 vs. crit. And it never hurts to give Blizzard another chance at a pun.
RV does not roll
End of discussion. It's been mathed at least 3 times, by Beta4Life, Kinmaul, and myself (in no specific order) to explain it clearly. Please search the thread if you need more examples. Kinmaul even knee-jerk reacted when I posted that if it WERE to roll it'd be a balance nightmare - be glad it does not.
Delaying to proc extra tick of RV
I'm quickly inclined to say "Not worth it." It's the same as delay a half second for another ability - losing a half second on that DPS is not a gain.
30% of a crit * 25% per tick = 7.5% of a crit.
Assume your crit chance is 50%.
50% * 7.5% = 4.75% gain.
Delaying DS (10s cooldown) by .5 seconds is a 5% loss.
Delaying Judgement (assume 8s) is a 6.25% loss. Worse with 7s cooldown.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
I think a Bladed Armour/Armoured to the Teeth equivalent would be nice to definitively drive us away from Mail and Leather unless they're insanely better itemized.
I'd considered something like "Wisdom of the Aegis" placed around 3rd tier Prot. Make it give some MP5 and spellpower from armour (for every X armour value you gain Y MP5 and Z spellpower). It helps balance the mana regen issues of Ret (not everything tied to JotW) and the spellpower may not be great for Ret or Prot, but it does increase DPS. It also gives Holy the choice to dive into Prot or Ret if they want spellpower/MP5 vs. crit. And it never hurts to give Blizzard another chance at a pun.
I like this idea a lot. Generally, I think Judgement is becoming a bit too powerful - miss once or twice, and not only does our dps drop by tons, we also go OOM at the same time. Trying to even out our mana regeneration by putting some of it elsewhere is a very welcome change from my point of view (similar to Enh. Shamans who can regain mana in a much more flexible way than we can).
Of course, there's always the problem of not buffing Holy by too much. The Light knows Holy is more than powerful enough in arena already, so there would have to be some nerf to Holy (or a downside by picking up the talent).
I think a Bladed Armour/Armoured to the Teeth equivalent would be nice to definitively drive us away from Mail and Leather unless they're insanely better itemized.
We don't need it if GC follows through and removes some of the huge amounts of stamina on plate and then adds Strength. Also increase strength itemization for necks/rings (partly done in Ulduar). For Ret and DKs, strength is just so much better than anything else, so make the item correctly and there is no issue.
Bladed armor isn't all that great (worth 400 AP for an epic DK), in fact what looks like the top dps spec for Unholy DKs next patch is 0/10/61, skipping the Blood tree altogether. Also the top Frost dps tree skips Blood, but that is largely due to the Ghoul.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
We don't need it if GC follows through and removes some of the huge amounts of stamina on plate and then adds Strength. Also increase strength itemization for necks/rings (partly done in Ulduar). For Ret and DKs, strength is just so much better than anything else, so make the item correctly and there is no issue.
Bladed armor isn't all that great (worth 400 AP for an epic DK), in fact what looks like the top dps spec for Unholy DKs next patch is 0/10/61, skipping the Blood tree altogether. Also the top Frost dps tree skips Blood, but that is largely due to the Ghoul.
I can only hope the stam-->str conversion, along with a change to CS, will give us the DPS boost we need. But don't devalue bladed armor-esq talents. DKs have three trees with nothing short of amazing talents. We have one tree, with what some might argue are lackluster talents (probably a case of the grass always being greener...). That being said, I've been doing pretty well on Ulduar parses, placing 5th-8th on most fights in gear that is far from BIS (to be fair, a lot of fights have situations where you can hit multiple targets, but blizz did say they don't just balance around patchwerk type fights).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
We don't need it if GC follows through and removes some of the huge amounts of stamina on plate and then adds Strength. Also increase strength itemization for necks/rings (partly done in Ulduar). For Ret and DKs, strength is just so much better than anything else, so make the item correctly and there is no issue.
This really is essential. Basically, a lot of hunter mail is within a few dps of pally plate (= ilvl) in naxx. If you look at t8 gear what they have done is made plate itemization worse - less budget towards str - while maintaining the quality for leather/mail. Of course plate will get passed up.
The other side effect of hunter mail is a larger mana pool -> more regen...
The fact that the ghoul has become a required talent for DK dps is unfortunate, but that is the topic of another thread.
We don't need it if GC follows through and removes some of the huge amounts of stamina on plate and then adds Strength. Also increase strength itemization for necks/rings (partly done in Ulduar). For Ret and DKs, strength is just so much better than anything else, so make the item correctly and there is no issue.
While I'm not against this proposition, his statement regarding bumping Strength on items was specifically directed at Warriors, not the other plate classes.
From the Warrior Q&A post (emphasis is my own):
The alternative is to shift some of the Stamina into Strength. That is just a straight buff to warriors though, and we might have to rebalance all of the damage abilities to make up for it. Long-term this is something we might do. Short-term it might push warriors farther away from being balanced. That might be a fun thought if you are of the mindset that Fury dps is low, but it's not going to do anyone any favors if it ended up overshooting the target by a great amount.
There has been no mention of Paladins or DKs with regard to that. Granted he may be speaking about plate gear in general, but could possibly be directing these comments specifically at the Warrior T8 set.
It is nice to know that they looking at increasing our damage incrementally to prevent the future chopping-block-styled nerfs we saw at level 70 with 3.0 talents. I do find it ironic that with all the crying and our counter-argument, four months later Ret is being buffed back up to where to some of these abilities had been originally. The glaring issue remains that our ability to provide competitive DPS is still greatly reduced in 3.1. (don't get me started about mana and Glyphing -- at least it's been acknowledged that if it's low or problematic, they'll fix it.)
Other than adding in a new ability, or creating scaling issues, they may just need to make Fanaticism and RV give the same benefit it gives on Live -- which I'm still not sure would bring us up to par. It seems to be a tricky issue. If we scale too well, we're going to be destroying things come Icecrown: but if we're dependent on wearing the best best (i.e. Sunwell) quality gear to stay in the fight, while other classes remain viable in any gear, we become lackluster in the interim. (aka broken.)
I see the greatest potential in CS being the magical talent that helps bridge the gap, or possibly allowing RV to proc off every crit. Here's to hoping for a single-target DS and Consecrate equivalent(s) and some tuning in the coming weeks.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
I don't think that it's going to be either of these. I think we're going to see some changes in the early tiers of holy which will be straight up dps buffs for PvE. You'll spec into prot for PvP and holy for PvE (well, 10 into holy, 5 in prot for strength). Our biggest problem is that we have 12 free talent points right now. Talent points are about a 1% additional effect (on average). Sure it's nice to be able to get all of the utility and all of the dps talents but we're getting that at the expense of dps. I'd rather see about 10 talent points in holy that are useful for dps. Make it a difficult choice between which 11 pointer utility we get. At the moment, it's get the one in prot because it costs 6 talent points to get and then you've got free points for additional utility in ret.
I seriously doubt that the additional effect of CS is just something that they're toying with internally and that it was a stuff up that it ended up on the PTR. Sure blizzard are human etc, but that really is quite a stuff up. It's a good excuse to use to get some additional numbers on an ability without a heap of people QQing. If the data they get on the PTR shows that the effect on CS is balanced, then I'm sure that it will stay in. It's an interesting take on MS/interupt that will require some skill to use effectively.
I don't think that it's going to be either of these. I think we're going to see some changes in the early tiers of holy which will be straight up dps buffs for PvE. You'll spec into prot for PvP and holy for PvE (well, 10 into holy, 5 in prot for strength).
I have to disagree here. DO NOT UNDERVALUE DIVINITY. On some fights in ulduar I was placing 3rd on healing meters, and most I was top 5 (and yes, this is EFFECTIVE). The healing from JoL is extremely important for raids, and IMO Divinity is 100% required for a PvE build. As such, expect no less than 10 points in prot. Please keep in mind if we were only brought to raids for DPS, we'd never get a spot. Ret paladins offer a utility that no other class/spec can provide at the same level of effectiveness: a moderate hot that is raidwide for DPS, and always there. I wouldn't also expect new talents, all I reasonably see left on the table is a buff to CS to greatly improve it in a PvE situation.
Last edited by Zurm : 03/25/09 at 2:45 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Good point Zurm.
Note that Divinity means others heal you for 5% more as well, to help less the large impact of JoB. They don't stack, so DiS and JoL only heal yourself for 5% more. I certainly will have it in all my PvE builds.
I see a mid to late April release for 3.1, so I feel the Pally trees are pretty much done.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
It would be nice if in using the seal of blood glyph, we could spec out of benediction (as it could be unnecessary). However, taking deflection isn't extra beneficial for ret dps either, so it is hardly worth it.
Hypothetically, if divine strength and deflection switched trees, then I could see that it might be viable to use the seal of blood glyph and not bother with benediction at all. Then again, that would effectively free up talent points and we already don't have enough worthwhile dps talents to pickup.
In other news, we did get a blue response about the SOB Glyph in THIS POST:
We looked at a lot of Ret parses and picked a Judgements of the Wise number that would make up for the loss of Spiritual Attunement mana.
If you don't have mana problems on Live, you shouldn't have them in 3.1. However if you do, you can get the Blood glyph.
I recently switched from Mage to Paladin for my raiding group. We had no Ret Paladins and I had one at 60 that I gave up on when TBC was released. I quickly leveled him to 80 and started raiding almost immediately (a week of heroics to get non-green gear first). The gear-up process was very recent for me, even though I am wearing 4pc T7 and have the appropriate cloak and jewelry.
I think that earlier, with SoB+SA, it was best to describe Ret as having a blue rage bar. When I was raiding in half greens and half heroic blues, I struggled to not go OOM because I did such poor damage to myself (and I didn't want to step into the slime and make the healers hate me). My first week of raiding I had to drop Exorcism from my rotation on Patchwerk to avoid going OOM - even while doing DP on cooldown and using a mana pot. The next week (and 4 upgrades later), I could do the full rotation (with DP and mana pot). Now, with my 10-man gear and 4pc bonus I don't worry about mana at all and am not very strict about keeping DP on cooldown.
But like warriors back in vanilla, the optimal dps cycle was not usable without decent raiding gear. Blizzard is switching us to a blue energy bar for 3.1 in that it refills in predictable, static portions regardless of gear (set bonuses aside). This is a substantial buff for Paladins doing heroics/5mans only, or ones just gearing up. It seems from the math in this thread that it will support the basic cycle for ALL Paladins, not just ones with nice gear. Shorter fights (or fights with no-dps phases) allow us to use haste potions, long fights where we cast a AoW heal here and there might require a mana pot. This is a good gaming decision to have - a little extra bit of skill to separate a good vs. mediocre player.
So, theirs is not a perfect solution, but as long as the numbers I'm seeing hold on live it does address Ret Paladins doing PvE outside of raiding without causing us raiders much inconvenience. What GC didn't mention is that for some Ret Paladins on live their mana situation will improve dramatically.
That's actually slightly incorrect in the last build frmorrison; the way divinity was working last night was JoL or DS *1.05*1.05. Self healing from JoL double dips! I've been predicting a release date of apr 7 for some time now but I'm not enitrely sure that is possible... our talent trees are almost sort of done, except we are still missing Divine Guardian (or it's replacement talent, that increases SS duration/absorb by 100%). It's possible that they decided to scrap it and not say anything about it. SS is also still not scaling properly in the last build despite the devs saying they were going to fix it in 9722, so we're not done yet. I'd love for them to just have RV trigger on all crits because it is solely a single target dps boost, with such a change we'd probably be better off on single target DPS than we are now, which is needed. A change to CS for pve would be great too but I just don't see it in the cards for this patch :/
But like warriors back in vanilla, the optimal dps cycle was not usable without decent raiding gear. Blizzard is switching us to a blue energy bar for 3.1 in that it refills in predictable, static portions regardless of gear (set bonuses aside). This is a substantial buff for Paladins doing heroics/5mans only, or ones just gearing up. It seems from the math in this thread that it will support the basic cycle for ALL Paladins, not just ones with nice gear. Shorter fights (or fights with no-dps phases) allow us to use haste potions, long fights where we cast a AoW heal here and there might require a mana pot. This is a good gaming decision to have - a little extra bit of skill to separate a good vs. mediocre player.
So, theirs is not a perfect solution, but as long as the numbers I'm seeing hold on live it does address Ret Paladins doing PvE outside of raiding without causing us raiders much inconvenience. What GC didn't mention is that for some Ret Paladins on live their mana situation will improve dramatically.
I agree and yet disagree with your point. There is an opposite side to this coin.
While the 3.0.9 system isn't perfect, it does allow a raiding Paladin access to his/her full arsenal of abilities without having to worry about not being competitive. We can argue semantics about where Paladins wind up in parsing for various fights, but we are truly limited by CDs in 3.0.9, especially in using the T7 4pc. The 3.1 changes will stabilize our mana returns, yes: but as it stands the changes also potentially hinder our DPS potential. While it's great and nice that these changes assist in the lower ends of the game: this becomes a potential headache for anyone who intends to clear Ulduar on hard mode, future content, etc.
It's a buff for the casual at the expense of the raider.
Toning up the mana returns on JotW to the vicinity of 29% would actually be a buff and standardization for everyone, rather than just the (excuse the term!) lower-end players. No more hit and miss regen, raiders aren't penalized, casual players get better returns. It's win/win/win. Additionally, it means that we're not possibly locked into having to use the SoB Glyph on some fights.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
I see a mid to late April release for 3.1, so I feel the Pally trees are pretty much done.
I agree that they're likely intending for the week of Easter for the release. (since Noble Garden is centered around the holiday and the patch contains the new Achievements, graphics, etc.) I'm not so sure the trees are complete however.
Given that they've done very little tweaking with multiple classes/specs, (Retribution, Mages, Rogues, Warriors) they have a lot of balancing and tuning work ahead of them. I seem to recall some hints about improving Ret's single-target viability and making DS/CS far more beneficial versus baseline abilities. (Consecrate) I'm speculating, but I would imagine they would probably intend to do most of this now, since this marks the first major content patch and the first opportunity to improve balancing outside of minor patches or hot-fixes.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
You would think Blizzard had learned from their patching process. Make huge changes across the board at the beginning of a patch test (helllooooo DK), then make smaller and smaller tweaks to reach ideal. Waiting until halfway through a PTR run (SA nerf and talents) drastically cuts the time they can work and tweak.
The later they wait to implement something, the less testing it receives. They can only slide patch releases so far. So they run into a wall and have to implement something at the last minute. A majority of the time it's too weak (and no review for weeks/months leaves a class sub-par), too strong (loud QQ from others, rapid nerf on live, loud QQ from nerf-ees). Rarely is it just right, because to be honest just right is Damn Hard(TM).
Ret Paladins tend to have knee-jerk reactions regarding PTR changes because we've often A) gone live too weak and been left that way for months or B) gone live too strong and been nerfed into weakness very rapidly (and left that way for months).
They're running out of time and I hope they have enough to get things just right. We all know they try. Talents still need work - when I'm contemplating 5/5 SotP rather than SoC because I have talent points oozing out my ears, it prolly needs the work.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
With most of your mana problems being drifted away from our minds, balancing it out from the wild variations of SA mana-regen style of play, most people are concentrated now in just how bad our dps is atm.
While this is a valid point, discussed a lot of times and expressed in tests and numbers, there is however one thing i would like to ask the PTR people since it makes me quite unconfortable in our future as raids go harder and harder in the future:
The problem in my mind is that 2 out of our 5 dps abilities are AOE, meaning that nearly half of our "clickable buttons" have implications if we have any kind of CC around that needs to be preserved.
If we account for 5% divine storm and 15% consecration that is around 20% of our dps that we MUST use in single-targeting dps, but we CANNOT use in CC situations or in gimmick situations that we need to pick our targets more carefuly for dps.
If we check other classes, they normaly have buttons dedicated solely to AOE that are not used in single target dps (seed of corruption, blizzard, hurricane, fan of knives, chain lightning, etc,etc,etc), but we have to use AOE abilities in our single target rotation, wich strikes me as sub-optimal.
My question is simple, for the PTR guys, are there any fights so far that you had to cut on consecration / Divine storm usease due to gimmick fights or single-targeting target-picking?
I think they actually communicated intention rather well this cycle of the PTR and, with regards to talent points, I'm not expecting much in the way of extra DPS talents based on that communication. I can't find the quote at the moment, but it seemed clear the intent in shearing the trees wasn't to allow for newer, funner talents but rather to encourage more points to be spent in holy/prot for "utility".
It's rather perverse of them to push us in that direction since I doubt anyone would feel great playing a spec that effectively capped it's DPS from talents at level 65. They also seem to overlook that the reason we spend so heavily in one talent tree vs other classes is that we only have a single true DPS tree to spend points in... something unique to paladins - and priests I guess. Balance issues aside, it does feel like they pruned without anything worthwhile up their sleeve to refill the gaps with and then quickly threw us a few oddball talents (Aura Mastery - compensation for the IoL nerf in arena? Did holy really need PvP buffs? Divine Sacrifice - seems oddly difficult to use outside of bubbling it, but the cooldown implies it is intended to be used without... caveat emptor I suppose) and decided to call it a day.
The changes coming in now are really attempting to address the DPS gap they aggravated by pruning the tree in the first place (and was an obvious consequence of moving into Ulduar and losing points out of RV and Fanaticism) and while they do shift some damage unto CS and DS, it's seems they are unwilling to really do the amount of re-balancing that transforming CS/DS into double-digit DPS contributors would really require. As it stands, I'd be surprised if either talent ends up much above 10% of our total DPS.
I admire the intent, but the implementation leaves much to be desired and has left them with very little time to patch things up. New talents would have been a nice way to diversify retribution's play, but more utility isn't something I felt we really needed. We already had unique seals/judgements, replenishment, hand spells, DG and LoH. That was sufficient. What could have used help was our relatively bland scaling talents in the +% to somethingorother category.
With most of your mana problems being drifted away from our minds, balancing it out from the wild variations of SA mana-regen style of play, most people are concentrated now in just how bad our dps is atm.
While this is a valid point, discussed a lot of times and expressed in tests and numbers, there is however one thing i would like to ask the PTR people since it makes me quite unconfortable in our future as raids go harder and harder in the future:
The problem in my mind is that 2 out of our 5 dps abilities are AOE, meaning that nearly half of our "clickable buttons" have implications if we have any kind of CC around that needs to be preserved.
If we account for 5% divine storm and 15% consecration that is around 20% of our dps that we MUST use in single-targeting dps, but we CANNOT use in CC situations or in gimmick situations that we need to pick our targets more carefuly for dps.
If we check other classes, they normaly have buttons dedicated solely to AOE that are not used in single target dps (seed of corruption, blizzard, hurricane, fan of knives, chain lightning, etc,etc,etc), but we have to use AOE abilities in our single target rotation, wich strikes me as sub-optimal.
My question is simple, for the PTR guys, are there any fights so far that you had to cut on consecration / Divine storm usease due to gimmick fights or single-targeting target-picking?
While i do not know about the PTR and Uld, what about the problems with this in live, mainly doing 3 drakes in OS where add agro can be a very big problem and where dps sacrifices from not using our aoe attacks has a large impact on the raid. Other occasions in Naxx can be avoided because the need for dps/difficulty of tanks picking up adds is much less.
While i do not know about the PTR and Uld, what about the problems with this in live, mainly doing 3 drakes in OS where add agro can be a very big problem and where dps sacrifices from not using our aoe attacks has a large impact on the raid. Other occasions in Naxx can be avoided because the need for dps/difficulty of tanks picking up adds is much less.
Indeed,
last time we went for the Spore Loser achievement (Defeat Loatheb in Naxxramas without killing any spores), without my AoE abilities my DPS was barely above the tank.
Granted this is an achievement thing its ok, but if they plan to bring back CC, this must be addressed.
Currently I'm awaiting the next build in the hopes of the mentioned buffs to CS/DS that will hopefully bring our DPS in line with other Hybrids.
Yeah, I think rstilskien brings up a good point. As the complexity of the encounters increases so does the clunkiness of how Paladins do dps start to rise up. It's another one of those issues the devs may need to consider but at this point who knows when or if this will be addressed.
AoE abilities ignoring CC'd targets is something they've implemented before for some limited cases and that, presumably, they could adapt to any troublesome abilities we might be using. If CC really does make a comeback, I'm sure we'll manage to tip-toe our consecrates in between sheeps like we used to.
Granted this is an achievement thing its ok, but if they plan to bring back CC, this must be addressed.
Ulduar requires CC on the trash. However, with proper skill, like CC the mobs away from the other ones and waiting until AoEing, it isn't an much of an issue.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
AoE abilities ignoring CC'd targets is something they've implemented before for some limited cases and that, presumably, they could adapt to any troublesome abilities we might be using. If CC really does make a comeback, I'm sure we'll manage to tip-toe our consecrates in between sheeps like we used to.
While I suppose making our AoE not affect CC'ed targets is an option it seems like an inelegant solution (maybe DS might pull it off but not Consecration, IMO). This is a result of the larger problem with our limited ways we do dps. The logical way to do it would be not to AoE but, as already mentioned, that would result in a large dps decrease. I am a proponent of removing Consecration from our regular dps rotation but of course we would need something to replace the dps we are losing (or a complete retooling of the spell would do I suppose).
03/25/09, 6:09 AM
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