I really don't think such incredibly vague "evidence", anecdotal or not is useful.

If you're going to post results (especially if they're going against the currently agreed upon theorycraft), you need to be 100% sure all other conditions (independent variables) are the same and present them as such. What were you attacking? What buffs did you have, what debuffs were helping you? Did you have any other gear changes? Was your latency/rotation the same? Or are these numbers from randomly running instances?



Regarding the gemming question:

Red socket: Str
Yellow socket: Str/Hit until cap, then Str/Crit. If there is no useful socket bonus, gem pure Str.
Blue socket: Str/Stam

Gemming or enchanting expertise is in all cases a (big) loss.

null

I am sitting at 301 hit, yet according to WWS logs I am missing on CS/DS 8-9% and White damage by 12%. Not sure why this is, maybe I am reading stuff wrong on +hit cap.

You're probably reading the "All Miss" column from WWS, where they roll in all hits that "missed" the target, whether it's actually misses, parries, dodges and so forth.

Click on columns, and put a check mark under "miss", "parry", "dodge" (rather than the default "all miss") to know what exactly is happening.

This is a pretty frequent question, I would hope the people at WWS would re-label that column some day.

Yeah, I forgot to account for Righteous Vengeance, and crit rate was abnormally low on my wws, so I edited the numbers accordingly. (wws showed 38% crit, which doesnt make any sense at all. Running around unbuffed it crits over 50% of the time)

Crit rate is accounted for in the dps of both abilities. Mana is the only issue, however the first judgment's mana return is really wasted anyway, and I'm not really running on fumes until the end of the fight, when the rotation changes anyway. (sub-20% judgment should get favored because you care less about subsequent rotations, since there wont be many)

With the 4 pc bonus, judgement doesnt actually tighten up the rotation, it has the opposite effect-- If you prioritize judgment then CS gets pushed back every single rotation. If you priortize CS the first time, then you can get 3 or four rotations with no conflicts at all (DS gets pushed back on the 3rd rotation. I think cs and judgement collide on the 4th, but I'm not at a dummy atm). That's clearly more dps. Prioritizing based on one gcd really doesnt make sense. You have to consider what happens in subsequent rotations. Let's say a fight lasts twenty rotations, prioritizing judgment pushes CS back each rotation, that's a straight 104dps lost for the fight. If prioritizing CS causes CS/Judgment collisions 1/4 rotations, that should be 34dps lost for the fight, right?

Somebody from the old ret thread had a nice graphical chart of the rotation, one of those for the 4pc bonus would be nice...

This is how I gem, I recommend it in the first post.

Nice catch, I hadn't considered [Enchanted Tear], you're correct it edges out 8str/12stam gem very slightly.

[Enchanted Tear]

Keep in mind though it's about +400g (on my server) for about a ~1 DPS difference over the 8 Str/ 12stam one (and in the range of ~3DPS over the 7 str/11 stam gem).

Awesome thanks Avitus, that was it. I was looking at all misses.

I'm trying to write out a realistic formula for our abilities in a raid situation and I'm coming to the point where I'm not sure about a couple of intricacies of the class. Specifically, does Seal/Judgement of Blood double dip from talents that yield a % damage modifier.

For example:

Here is Seal of Blood's tooltip for the Judgement portion of the spell:
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing [0.36 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] to [0.36 * MW + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH] Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused.

Now, we obviously have an arbitrary value for mw-MW which have been influenced already by 2H Spec, Crusade, SancRet, and Vengeance. So, would Judgement's formula look like this:

([0.36 * mw + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH]*1.03*1.06*1.09*1.1) to ([0.36 * MW + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH]*1.03*1.06*1.09*1.1)

In which case it really looks something like this...

([0.36 * (mw*1.03*1.06*1.06*1.09) + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH]*1.03*1.06*1.09*1.1) to ([0.36 * (MW*1.03*1.06*1.06*1.09) + 0.16 * AP + 0.25 * SPH]*1.03*1.06*1.09*1.1)

I guess it makes sense in the end, but I'm just looking for some confirmation on it.

Edit: Forgot AoW 1.1 multiplier for Judgement

Keep in mind that neither Str/Hit nor Str/Crit gems (the rare versions) exist in the game yet. Thus we are somewhat screwed for the yellow sockets.

Surely that will be changed by the time of the next content patch (or when you can actually get epic gems). Otherwise. options are +hit, +crit, ignoring socket bonuses outright or using a rare variant of orange gems and living with 1-2 points of less str/hit or crit.

*edit stuff*

I'm working on this atm with that suggestion... so far I have this from a perfect 2minute rotation (using every GCD exactly) with judgment leading the rotation. Judgments being at 7sec cooldown and consecrate at 10sec. Both rotations end with the choice between crusader strike or judgment (altho you'll have to wait 0.5sec for CS).

With Judgment Priority on GCDs

Crusader Strikes: 16
Judgments: 16
Divine Storms: 11
Consecration: 11
Free GCDs: 26 (exorcism, reseal, potions, divine plea, whatever)

With Crusader Strike Priority on GCDs

Crusader Strikes: 20
Judgments: 15
Divine Storms: 10
Consecration: 10
Free GCD: 25

So if 4 crusader strikes are worth more than 1 judgment, 1 divine storm and 1 consecrate then in a perfect system, you're better off prioritising CS over judgment. So if I use the values given by Kaprina.

4x CS = 12516

DS = 2967
Judgment = 6990
Consecrate = 4770

Total = 14727

So, prioritising CS over judgment nets an actual loss in damage (2211). Not even one attack's difference. At least with the data presented.

I'll expand the spreadsheet rotations to 5mins and include some other things such as latency and anything else ppl suggest as important to consider.

*moar edit*

Without T7, you lose one judgment (so 14 in 2mins) and your CS is always used on cooldown without any conflict with judgment apart from bring exactly 1.5secs apart.

and tears match any socket, so can put it and all others - str

Ahh yes, the DoT damage from RV is another reason why Judgment breaks ahead (at least from my PoV). Judgment just has some much more going on for it in general.

My next lot of rotations will probably have something like 0.5sec gap where clashes (or close to clashes) occur to somehow make up for latency + human brain response and decision on what button is being pressed. My overall hypothesis is that in the real rotation, lots of influences will cause a player to delay ability uses which just jumbles everything up as cooldowns go. In the same sense, the jumbling up will also lead to repetition of clashes where it's just a matter of selecting the better ability and continuing on.

At the very least, it'll be a nice graphical example of why we FCFS.

Just to revisit this briefly. I completed my trinket last night and did some quick testing. Perhaps it has been hotfixed, but I had no mana cost on my Greatness proc. I tested it versus a combat dummy just autoattacking, and the only thing to appear in the combat log was the proc itself, and my mana did not move. So, that's good news!

WWS interprets the backlash damage from seal/judgement of blood as a second attack. So when you judge the mob, WWS interprets this as two attacks, and the self-harm portion can't crit. So if WWS is show a 38% crit rate on your 2x judgements of blood, you actually had a 76% crit rate on x judgements of blood. This will also lower the average damage per hit of JoB/SoB that WWS presents.

Writing to confirm this. It drained my mana yesterday, didn't today.

Just a quick question, and maybe I should be directed to put this into the redcape rawr forum post, but that loot ranking has the trinket from king dread, Incisor Fragment, as the most valuable trinket in game. A) do people think this is correct and B) If you have the ArmPen, or a + AP trinket on use (currently i'm deciding between incisor fragment and the Sphere of the Red Dragon's blood that has +55 hit and +778 AP on use), which is better to chain with Avenging wrath?

Unfortunately lootrank does not work with trinkets. Lootrank does not know how to evaluate a Use: property, or a chance on hit property so it ignores them. 148 AP is a fantastic base, but the 49 armorpen you get from the use is pathetic. The best trinket is the strength Darkmoon: Greatness card, and second is [Mirror of Truth]. (Might only be true in 10s, I have not fully evaluated 25s trinkets)

Something to take into consideration, with the Incisor Fragment, is when you put the armor pen, you pop Wings at the same time, making it a little better than 49 armor pen.

My Rawr Trinket rankings:
Darkmoon: Greatness
Mirror of Truth
Grim Toll (assuming you were under your specific hit cap)
Bandit's Insigia
Loathab's Shadow

I just finished my greatness deck. I also have the mirror and [Loatheb's Shadow]. I'm wondering if the Shadow isnt the better choice simply due to it's consistency. It's up for every use of AW, whereas the mirror is fairly random-- It will go 1ppm for a few bosses, then I'll have a 5 min fight where it procs twice. (Greatness, on the other hand, procs like clockwork)

Would the Shadow's synergy with AW outweigh the greater AP from the mirror?

Lets break it down:

[Loatheb's Shadow]: 670 * 20/120 = 112 AP

[Mirror of Truth] has an icd (internal cooldown) of 45 seconds:

Assuming unrealistic optimum: 1000 * 10/45 = 223 AP
Assuming an average 15 seconds to proc effect past icd: 1000 *10/60 = 167 AP

So, ignoring AW for the moment, you have somewhere between (at best) 223 AP and 167 AP for the Mirror vs. 112 AP for Loatheb's Shadow.

Now factoring in AW, those 112 AP will be worth 20% more (note: this is not the perfect way of doing it, but it's very close to exact), equating to roughly 134 AP.

So even if we factor AW for Loatheb's Shadow and nothing for Mirror, Mirror is a chunk ahead. Now keep in mind in practice, Mirror will also have some uptime during AW/heroism/other effects improving it even further.


Lengthy reply for a simple thing, but I've seen this question thrown around too frequently. It's unusual to expect the badge trinket to be better than the drop, though remember they're the same item level and the math for it is very clear.

Anyone considering the new changes to Libram of Reciprocation(link follows) [link]http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40706[/link] do you think this will make it worth using SoC over SotM. And when will we be getting a Libram that works on SotM?