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Old 12/08/08, 9:49 PM   #166
Sunshinewow
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sylvanas (EU)
rotations

Originally Posted by Demincia View Post
In an attempt to improve my own DPS i took an example from Sigurd on the old ret thread and came up with a new spreadsheets of Ret spell rotations and priorities. I hope this might be a usefull contribution to the guide here. I haven't quite figured out how to incorporate SoB uptime and Procs.. but if there's interest and my spreadsheet isn't off by all that much i'd be glad to update. Or if anyone feels like improving on it that's fine too.

Also by all means any corrections or criticism is welcome as i've only been ret since the expansion and learning as i go.

http://www.twistedrevenge.com/images/30RetCycle.zip
Regreding Retri dps cycle and spell rotation as new dps pala i find this link rly good,so check it out.
Noone confirm is it corect or not tho but i did test few rotations myself and pick working one for me with cos i rly dont wanna belive that retri dps is only about pressing ability with CD rdy w/o any useing of brain parts.

I pick Exempl 7 : with 8 sec judgements and 10 sec Cons.
I find that rotation rly good cos there is no many time wasted w8ing cooldown to pop up.
There is a 4 rotations for using in that exempl:
1. J > DS > CS > Cons
2. J > CS > DS > Cons
3. J > CS > DS
4. J > CS > Cons
After 4th part you starting all over again.There is a time after 3rd and 4th wave to use spells for undeads and demons w/o interupting rotations at all.I cant w8 to test it after restart cos i read this after all bosses are killed :/

Also about hit.
When i switch from holy to retri on start of wotlk raids i have like 198-200 hit.I miss ALOT in 25 man raids...aloooot !!!
Recount was crazy...on every single ability i have hugeee amount off misses.It was scary.So my first task was to cap hit and ignore stories about ,,ghost hit,, cos in my case that was not correct.Now i have abit too much hit cos my gear setup is still in proces,365 hit and total rock solid 0 missing atacks and i like it.
My next goal is to pimp expertize high cos imo those 2 stats,hit and exper. need to be taken really serious w/o leaving space for ghost stories:P

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Old 12/08/08, 11:47 PM   #167
Olympus
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Alonsus (EU)
After reading this thread, I decided to do some testing on my own... But before I share the results, I would like to state some this very important fact:

** Pre-3.0 I was Holy specced, and that includes the night before the patch... I did not have Precision, or actually ANY Protection talents prior to the patch night. I logged on the next day after patch still in my holy gear even.

Isolating Variables:

1) To further neutralize the whole variable of talents, and also eliminate a personal doubt that might be a 'typo' in one of our talents that gives us hit instead of crit, I performed the following test without allocating any talent points; i.e. I had 0/0/0 specc.

2) Both tests were performed on the Heroic test dummy in Ironforge.

3) Both tests were conducted around 3:30 a.m. in the morning to make sure the dummy was not afflicted by any debuffs of any sorts, and I had no buffs/potions/elixirs or external buffs of any sort, including my own blessings/auras.

4) The tests were done using the "Tabar" 2-handed white axe, bought from the weapon master in ironforge. The choice of the weapon was to also eliminate any expertise benefits that could be yielded upon using a 2h sword or mace from my Human racial.

First Test:

It was performed without any gear equipped on. I had zero hit rating, and zero expertise. I took a sample of 1000 melee swings, performed on the aforementioned dummy. The results yielded illustrated in the following recount screenshot:



I had a 5.2% miss chance on the dummy. Putting in an 0.2% margin of error, that rounds us very close to the claimed 5% hit chance.

Second Test:

It was performed on the same target dummy, I had equipped the following 3 items:
- Spiked Titansteel Helmet (60 hit rating)
- Collar of Dissolution (24 hit rating)
- Staggering Legplates (80 hit rating)
===========
Total hit rating: 164 (Precisely 5% hit chance)

The results of this test is represented in the following recount screenshot:



As you can see; from the 1,000 swings, I had ZERO misses on the dummy. Which in conjuction with the previous test of 5.2% miss chance, pushes me to the complete certainty that right now our hit cap is 5%, i.e. 164 hit rating.

Please analyze my testing and results, and provide any feedback if I had any wrong assumptions or testing mechanisms.

Prism, lvl80 Retribution Paladin, Ascendance Guild, Alonsus-EU

Have a Nice Day (tm)...

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Old 12/09/08, 12:38 AM   #168
Joelly
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jubei'Thos
I did a test myself on this 5% hit rumor and got a 3.2% miss chance with a hit rating of 201 (6.13%) and no buffs, just my normal gear. I was holy at the time of the patch so I don't have this "ghost hit". What am I doing wrong? So many people have nearly confirmed that 5% hit is the melee cap. It's not the vindication either in the recount screenshot, I saw melee misses on my SCT.


Test 2: 300 swings, 8 misses.

Last edited by Joelly : 12/09/08 at 1:01 AM.

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Old 12/09/08, 12:49 AM   #169
eMagdAeH
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Shadow Council
Originally Posted by Sunshinewow View Post

Also about hit.
When i switch from holy to retri on start of wotlk raids i have like 198-200 hit.I miss ALOT in 25 man raids...aloooot !!!
Recount was crazy...on every single ability i have hugeee amount off misses.It was scary.So my first task was to cap hit and ignore stories about ,,ghost hit,, cos in my case that was not correct.Now i have abit too much hit cos my gear setup is still in proces,365 hit and total rock solid 0 missing atacks and i like it.
My next goal is to pimp expertize high cos imo those 2 stats,hit and exper. need to be taken really serious w/o leaving space for ghost stories:P
Please refrain from using internet short speak, it can be difficult to read.

Anyway, hit and expertise are both very valuable, but you can't forget that Strength outweighs both Hit and Expertise. It's obviously prudent to get Hit and Expertise where possible, but things like gemming are very favored towards Strength. There are postings of math showing that Strength is on top, but I can't remember exactly where they are in these boards and it's late. If you need links I can dig them out tomorrow, just PM me and I'll find it.

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Old 12/09/08, 9:09 AM   #170
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
@Olympus - Gratz! Wish I had the ghost hit. My test proved me needing exactly 8 to cap - same 1000 melee test. My Naxx 10 confirmed this.

@Joelly - your samples are too small. Do at least 1000 melee attacks and make sure it's with a weapon you have 400 skill using, then check your miss. You could just have had a good/bad day with the Random Number Generator, or be affected by weapon skill (my first test I started with my new 2H sword and immediately realized I hadn't skilled it to 400 - needless to say I scrapped those numbers, hit the field, came back later to do the 1000 I've discussed).

Honestly, even 1000 melee attacks is a small sample size, but it should be enough for rough numbers (i.e. a .4 round down, .6 round up rule - .5 and retest!).

I think we can definitively state:
A) Some Paladins require 5% to hit cap
B) Some Paladins require 6% to hit cap
C) Some Paladins require 8% to hit cap
D) These do not appear to be tied to talents (Olympus got 5% with 0/0/0 spec and I got 8% with full Ret spec and Ret Aura).
E) These do not appear to be tied to talents prior to 3.0 (Olympus and I were both Holy, no precision and we have 3% difference between us).

Until Blizzard resolves this discrepancy (probably as difficult as the non-Judgements they admit happen but have yet to resolve) I can only recommend that every single Ret Paladin test their own personal hit cap.

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Old 12/09/08, 10:04 AM   #171
Maxrpg
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Dalaran
So basically with the Hit cap problems, Exemplar is on the money. There seems to be too much variation between Paladins (mileage may vary) and their hit cap.

I myself have about 6% hit cap, and I can gear accordingly to boost my own personal DPS.

Whether or not Blizzard will implement hit rating as a static 5% (to just give Ret inherent precision somewhere down the tree) for the class at all is distressing.

Until then, if you have ghost hit, then go for broke and utilize your gear to base yourselves around it - you will find yourself doing a lot more DPS than our 8% brethren.

Regarding rotation I read earlier:

7s CD Judgement
0s - Judge
1.5s - CS
3s - Consecration
4.5s - DS
1 second window, perhaps pop divine plea?
(7.5s - Judge with DP)
(9s - CS with DP)
13s - Consecration
14.5s - Judge
16s - CS
This rotation is standard for bosses, however in bold I have added in things and changed it accordingly.

This rotation allows for mana regen, is just .5 seconds off of the other rotation, and takes in account that Consecration does more DPS than Divine Storm on a single target over a long fight duration. If you have the mana, that is.

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Old 12/09/08, 10:10 AM   #172
Gevlin
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Mannoroth
Question: If you're on a 7s Judgement rotation and you're prioritizing Consecration over DS, does [Libram of Furious Blows] overtake [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution] in usefulness?

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Old 12/09/08, 10:16 AM   #173
Maxrpg
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
Question: If you're on a 7s Judgement rotation and you're prioritizing Consecration over DS, does [Libram of Furious Blows] overtake [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution] in usefulness?
Absolutely. With the reduction in cooldown, and situational fights, Libram of Furious Blows can be more useful than Venture Co. Libram. Granted, if you are doing trash, your priority should be Consecrate and Divine Storm over Crusader Strike, so the Venture Co. Libram would be a better fit.

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Old 12/09/08, 11:25 AM   #174
rldolph79
Von Kaiser
 
rldolph79's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Alexstrasza
Originally Posted by Gevlin View Post
Question: If you're on a 7s Judgement rotation and you're prioritizing Consecration over DS, does [Libram of Furious Blows] overtake [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution] in usefulness?
Unless you're talking about a ridiculously short fight, no. [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution] still wins.

Granted it takes a few extra seconds to get the first buff, but after that it's pretty easy to see why VCLoR is better.

[Libram of Furious Blows] - Assume 7.5s between buffs

(5/7.5)*61 = 40.6 crit average

[Venture Co. Libram of Retribution] - Assume 10.5s between buffs

(8/10.5)*73 = 55.6 crit average

edit: In another week it doesn't matter anyway as the PvP librams>all.

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Old 12/09/08, 12:36 PM   #175
Mieke
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Bleeding Hollow
This is my parse including judgement hits. The way recount was counting my judgements was strange. Seems like judgement misses are reported in the combat log as a separate spell. I did this with 0 gear, in ret raid spec. No aura or expertise racial weapon equipped. Well here it is, take of it as you will:








Through some simple math, I tested 1784 total judgements, of which 149 missed. Which calculates to about a 8.3% miss chance judgements. I'm not going to try to conclude anything with these results. I wanted to post them in hopes that someone could make a better judgment of my results (lolpunhaha)

Last edited by Mieke : 12/09/08 at 12:43 PM.

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Old 12/09/08, 12:41 PM   #176
Questioner
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Olympus View Post
Which in conjuction with the previous test of 5.2% miss chance, pushes me to the complete certainty that right now our hit cap is 5%, i.e. 164 hit rating.
Which unfortunately cannot be generalized. I just couldn't resist testing it out anymore.



For myself, I am still getting a 9% miss rate when equipped with only a weapon and specced 0/10/61, unbuffed and solo. I had precision before the patch, but I was using a mace (now using a polearm). I do not know if the weapon type could be a factor, it was just something that came to my head.

Stated earlier:

I think we can definitively state:
A) Some Paladins require 5% to hit cap
B) Some Paladins require 6% to hit cap
C) Some Paladins require 8% to hit cap
D) These do not appear to be tied to talents (Olympus got 5% with 0/0/0 spec and I got 8% with full Ret spec and Ret Aura).
E) These do not appear to be tied to talents prior to 3.0 (Olympus and I were both Holy, no precision and we have 3% difference between us).
I can agree with D and E, but it appears for myself at least 9% is still the hit cap, unless my sample size was just too small at ~1200 swings.

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Old 12/09/08, 12:51 PM   #177
Gevlin
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Questioner View Post
I can agree with D and E, but it appears for myself at least 9% is still the hit cap, unless my sample size was just too small at ~1200 swings.
Your sample size was 1153 swings, with 103 misses. 8.93% miss rate with a 95% confidence interval of [7.34, 10.73]

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Old 12/09/08, 1:37 PM   #178
Azu
Glass Joe
 
Azu's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Forgotten Coast
The confidence interval still doesn't include 5% so the ghost hit theory is still possible.

I'm very interested in developing a conclusion regarding this. My last few weeks have been spent gearing towards 295 hit and I'd hate to think I was taking gear from others under incorrect information.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:54 PM   #179
Gevlin
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Azu View Post
The confidence interval still doesn't include 5% so the ghost hit theory is still possible.

I'm very interested in developing a conclusion regarding this. My last few weeks have been spent gearing towards 295 hit and I'd hate to think I was taking gear from others under incorrect information.
I can conclude with utmost certainty that MY hit cap is 6% or less. I can also conclude that Questioner's hitcap is over 7.5%. It just seems absurd that we can't figure out why some people have ghost hit, and others don't. Because we know its not tied to weapon, race, talents before 3.0, or talents after 3.0. I'd certainly like an answer from Blizzard regarding this because if I intentionaly avoid gear with excess hit on it (Cloak of Mastery for instance) and they fix this issue to the theoretical 8-9% I'm going to be upset. Likewise for the people who are gearing for 8 or 9% hit. If they just say screw it and lower it down to 6% or whatever, that's a lot of wasted stats you've been collecting. It needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

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Old 12/09/08, 3:52 PM   #180
Amant
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Eldre'Thalas
expertise/hit cap

Has anyone managed to cap both of these stats yet and still have above 3500 ap?

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