Hit is more important pre melee cap in 3.1 because for a seal to land, you have to win TWO rolls at least: the strike/swing, and the seal. For a judgement, there is only one. This is exactly why expertise went up as well.

Incorrect (at least, from how I read this). The reason str is worth less than hit/exp is two-fold. First, the above explaination of the inflated value of exp/hit... str is not worse in this regard, hit/exp is just better. Secondly, if you look at the amount of each value changed on judgement's coefficients, you will see the AP one dropped more than the spell damage or weapon damage one (comparitively). Ret paladins have historically scaled extremely well, and now more than ever I expect that to be the case. Our class double-dips all the time (anything using AP and spell damage effectively double-dips due to sheath of light), and I can comfortably say that you really have nothing to worry about when it comes to scaling.

This is something that had me a little confused as well. It doesn't quite seem right at first glance, although not to the point that I would necessarily suspect a mistake. Here is the only stuff I could come up with for explanations:

- People keep saying "judgement damage reduced by 30%", but a more exact description is that the AP scaling of judgement is reduced by 32% and the SP/weapondamage scaling was reduced by 28%. So this could be a relatively larger nerf to our strength scaling than our hit rating, causing hit rating to appear to improve in value since we're so used to comparing it to strength?

- I think that the RV coefficient nerf from 40% to 30% plus the large nerf to Judgement crit damage would probably cause an overall nerf to RV even after you consider that it now procs from CS? Would this mean that now a larger percentage of our DPS is dependent on hit rating? This depends on whether our instant attacks use a 1-roll or 2-roll system, which was something I never did know the actual answer to.

I thought that was only for Seal of Command, and that Blood could not miss or be dodged/parried (assuming the original attack landed)

Seal of Blood can definitely miss and be dodged or parried.

Wrong. Here's a WMO of our last patchwerk, Miss = 1, Dodge = 3 on SotM.

Yeah I guess that's basically the full explanation then. A higher percentage of DPS that scales doubly with Hit/Expertise rating would certainly cause a huge jump in those stats' scaling

SoR works as you are thinking (if melee/strike hits, those Seal hit but cannot crit). At least since 3.0 Seal of Blood/Command have been able to miss/dodge/parry.

I agree. Too bad I already dropped engineering for JC (not too TOO bad though as I've made a ton of money from JC)

I'm assuming the 3 prismatic JC gems still beat out out the dps increase from the haste though?

"Sheath of Light: Critical heals from Lay on Hands will now trigger this talent."

Just noticed this in the bug fixes section of the latest patch notes, seems like a nice change...

Also:
"Justicar (T4) Retribution Set: The bonus to seals now works properly on Seal of Blood and Seal of the Martyr."
Yay?

Without a doubt. In fact, right now T8 bonus is most likely better than T7 (1 sec off a spell that does mediocre damage in 3.1 ain't all that great).

Ok a few questions

Most recent blue post on MMO champ says the changes to Judgement and Seal Damage should be the same damage combined as it is now more like a different spread. Are we certain it is still a buff?

With regards to Mark of Norgannon. How does it compare to Greatness and FOF? Haste is better but not close to strength yet.

I see numbers from Redcape putting expertise below strength by quite a bit. Yet people are saying we need both hit and expertise cap. Is it certain we need the expertise cap or is it just more worthwhile than live?

Has anyone begun updating the gear spreadhseets to include ulduar gear besides Tier 8? Witht he stat changes being so drastic determining best in slot will be much more difficult. At this rate it seems like 10 man ulduar is a complete waste besides possibly one trinket with 95 hit.

They increased the stats on plate tier 8 in ulduar quite a bit and on other plate pieces as well possibly.

No, they just increased the strength and lowered every other stat. The net effect, given our predicted current stat weights, is probably about equal, but at a loss of 41 stam to the whole set.

It is buff because that makes hit, haste, and exp better stats than before.

I don't feel you need the exp cap, but hit cap is a very good idea.

The Rawr link yesterday (just a .dll file) to update the beta build has a lot of the new Ulduar plate in it. I see 10 man as a good way to get T8 4 piece faster and a good weapon if you don't have Betrayer, which is a big dps increase.

Some core facts have not changed. It is still not required to hit or expertise cap. They're nice, pick the stat up on gear when it drops. Do not gem hit or gem expertise - you are still better gemming raw Str. Based on the gear I've even glanced at it appears hitcap (and beyond) will be ridiculously easy in Ulduar gear.

Str is no better or worse, the other stats have improved. Hit and expertise are slightly better, but still below Str (hence gem for Str). Haste and ArmPen are less crappy. Less crappy != good. Again, pick them up because itemization favours split stats, but don't go hunting them.

I believe Blizzard intends the change to SoB and JoB to be basically a wash. The fact is that Judgement can only hit ever 7 or 8 seconds (depending on T7 4 piece), while Seal hits on white hits (affected by haste), CS, and DS. I'm sure at some specific weaponspeed with no haste new Judgement + Seal == old Judgement + seal. However at most realistic weaponspeeds (natural and +haste) the seal is giving us a DPS increase.

I agree with your other statements, but I disagree with this statement. My findings have put them considerably above strength before cap. As such, I also feel that gemming to cap WOULD be best in 3.1. As I posted earlier:

I do agree that Ulduar gear has a ton of hit, so in the end you probably won't have to gem for either stat to cap. HOWEVER, as it stands we have pretty much ignored hit/exp when it comes to capping, and to be fully effective come 3.1 some regemming will likely be required.

There is WAY too much hit in this setup!

Don't focus on ilvl so much... while a little bit of hit is being removed compared to what wowhead currently has, its still too much of a different. You could likely afford to swap the neck/ring... don't be afraid to use an agi/ap one if you have to!

I need to run some more Expertise numbers to know for sure, but I see people using 16 hit gems (for yellow slots) to be best when below hit cap. Note plate gear in Ulduar has a lot of hit, but you have to get it first .

If you don't get the mana from Judge, you may have to drop attacks until you get mana back, so that is why I feel hit cap is more important than Strength stacking (in 3.1).

I could see it being useful to use etched Str/Hit gems in order to get socket bonuses on certain pieces of gear. With the stat weightings that Redcape posted (plus the loss of mana regen on missed judgements), this gemming strategy would appear to be a no-brainer - although the issue is that Ulduar gear seems to have tons of hit rating on it, so it appears likely that we won't be able to help but already be hitcapped before considering gems/enchants.

But still, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of it being advantageous to use a couple Strength/Hit gems to exactly reach the hit cap, in cases where the big chunks of hit rating on BIS gear only leave the choice of either being slightly under or way over the hit cap.

On a side-note . . .

Has there been any word on whether we'll be able to buy any pieces of T8 with Emblems of Valor? I believe I remember seeing that we'd be able to buy 2 pieces of T8.5 with Conquest, and figured that the same would probably be true for 10man T8 and Valor, but can't recall seeing any specific mention or confirmation of that.

With the new changes with Seal of Blood/Martyr, shouldn't we consider this more of a scaling nerf than anything else?

Since our Judgements "Triple" dip and SoB/M are a single % of weapon damage, once we gear up through T8 and eventually T9 we'll be looking at a significant DPS loss than if Blizz had not changed the mechanics at all.

Can anyone possibly confirm how much this will affect Ret DPS on the PTR with Shirts of Uberness(to simulate T8 stats)?

SoB scales off weapon damage. Weapon damage scales off AP. Therefore SoB scales off AP. It might not triple dip (scale off weapon [which also scales off AP], scale off coefficient of AP, scale off coefficient of spellpower [itself scaled from AP via Sheath]), but it still gets a reasonable amount. Increasing % of weapon damage is for all intents equal to adding or increasing an AP coefficent.

You have multiple seal procs in the time of one judgement cooldown. This many to one ratio favours the seal.

We still look to be scaling fine.

I do agree that Ulduar gear has a ton of hit, so in the end you probably won't have to gem for either stat to cap. HOWEVER, as it stands we have pretty much ignored hit/exp when it comes to capping, and to be fully effective come 3.1 some regemming will likely be required.



There is WAY too much hit in this setup!

Don't focus on ilvl so much... while a little bit of hit is being removed compared to what wowhead currently has, its still too much of a different. You could likely afford to swap the neck/ring... don't be afraid to use an agi/ap one if you have to![/quote]


^
This is the dilema I am having in regards to gearing at the moment. Even getting expertise cap seems easy in 3.1.
2 rings with it +str and one of them has a chunk of hit on it as well from trash. two pieces of tier 8 get us the majority of our hit and then a Neck off hodir for hardmode which I think looks better than most other necks by quite a margin.

I am thinking I would take the hit/expertise ring and the expertise ring from hardmode Thorem and grab hodir's neck and by pass hard mode Iron Council's belt because the hit would be useless and go for the craftable Expertise belt whose stats also seem fairly strong. Obsidian great helm almost seems to be best off piece in Ulduar if getting hit capped is that easy. By itself it is better than tier 8s and the other tier 8 off piece possibilites thus far dont look very promising because they all have way too much hit!

I still plan to use my prismatic gems for Strength, but was wondering if anyone knew of any other best in slot off pieces besides the OGH? The other off piece possibilites I am seeing do not look promising. Yogg Saron's and Alagon's loot list are not yet available but we have most of them.

Trinkets are what I am the most loss at how to choose now. I am still skeptical of Mark Norgannon. How does this make Wrathstone and the 10 man Ulduar trinket with 95 hit look for us now? The trinekt is another possibility to up or hit to cap quickly but I am leaning more towards the trash ring +hodir neck along with the tier 8 chest and legs to get me there.

Any thoughts?

Please post a different item combo instead of facepalming, kthx.

A small change to the rings: Swapping in ruthlessness for bladebearer's signet trades off hit for crit, maintains expertise, and gives up 8 str. Stays at the hit cap with a little wiggle room, exceeds exp cap by a little bit, but I'm not able to find a reasonable work around for that yet.

If anyone cares to take it and mess around to try and get more str, crit or haste out of the build in exchange for those few exp points please do.

Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft

In regards to your setup I am going to say Drop the Hit helm.

If you pick up the new Trash Ring (name slipped my mind) it has both hit and exp and 63 str.

That would get you your hit cap no problem. Swap in the OGH and then you should be very close if not Expertise capped.

Then you can drop Mark of Norgannon and pickup Wrathstone or another DPS trinket. I am not going to say go for Mark of Norgannon until I see numbers that actually confirm it. I am still thinking Greatness + Wrathstone will be best in slot in Ulduar and FOF was way too hard to get to drop for the trinket we have Ded several times

I think you may be correct with Drape of the Deadly foe though. I was planning to get the new Str + armpen cloak from Razorscale but if haste is as good as it sounds then Drape of the deadly foe will prolly still be best in slot. Which makes me happy!