So do we have any more data which shows the new seal changes as a buff instead of a wash?
I saw that it was theorycrafted that this was a 8% increase is that still the consensus or has anything changed.
I tried to do some number crunching and testing on the ptr but horde judgements are still the old numbers so kinda useless to test, but it didnt seem like a huge dps increase even with the old judgements maybe 3%.
The CS 5% bonus from pvp gloves is worth 35 dps with all the new changes. That is roughly 20 Str, or 40 crit/agil/Arpen/haste. As such, pvp gloves are going to be quite good. I have no idea if they will end up best in slot or not (this bonus does scale with gear though) but they are certainly going to be a respectable choice now.
It has been implied that, since a larger percentage of our damage is now "affected" by expertise, expertise now becomes more valuable and that this is therefore a "buff" to us. This is not necessarily the case. For example, if they allowed judgements to be dodged or parried, expertise would become more "valuable" as a stat, but that change would definitely be a nerf to our overall DPS (and mana regen).
On the other hand, the recent overall buffs to the effectiveness of Armor Pen and Haste are "buffs" to us. However, since we get less benefit from them than other classes to begin with, they are also larger buffs to those classes than to us.
if they allowed judgements to be dodged or parried, expertise would become more "valuable" as a stat, but that change would definitely be a nerf to our overall DPS (and mana regen).
On the other hand, the recent overall buffs to the effectiveness of Armor Pen and Haste are "buffs" to us. However, since we get less benefit from them than other classes to begin with, they are also larger buffs to those classes than to us.
Judgement will never be a melee attack, since it would screw with Holy Pallies (they get 15% haste).
Unholy and Frost DKs get less of a gain from Haste and Armor Pen than Ret, however the DKs with Pets scale better with Strength (pet only gain's from master's Strength) and expertise.
Anyway, the devs know melee classes scale differently, which is why they have an in-house raid testing team to make sure everyone scales similarly.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Hm...with these new mechanics changes, if I'm not mistaken, Iron-Spring Jumpers - Item - World of Warcraft will be the best-in-slot pre-Ulduar boots for a non-hit capped Retribution Paladin. Would anyone be willing to double-check me on this? Plugging my own stats into Rawr lists them as the best-in-slot boots (except for some Leather boots from Ulduar) for me since my +hit is currently low, and I assume it would be the same for any non-hit capped Retadin. Better than Melancholy Sabatons, even.
Hm...with these new mechanics changes, if I'm not mistaken, Iron-Spring Jumpers - Item - World of Warcraft will be the best-in-slot pre-Ulduar boots for a non-hit capped Retribution Paladin. Would anyone be willing to double-check me on this? Plugging my own stats into Rawr lists them as the best-in-slot boots (except for some Leather boots from Ulduar) for me since my +hit is currently low, and I assume it would be the same for any non-hit capped Retadin. Better than Melancholy Sabatons, even.
The boots could be a singular BiS piece but that doesn't mean they're in the BiS setup. I talked with Bulwyth briefly about this, but we're both waiting for Exemplar's DPS weights to make our final analysis on preUlduar gearsets.
As it stands now, Redcape's and RAWR's weightings are quite different from one another and they both can't be right. Basically (for me), this question remains; Will Expertise capping be required or is it just a bonus if it happens?
I'm personally quite content on this shift in stat weights and gearing decisions. It feels like we're back to the pre3.0 gearing style but with more interactivity and self sustainability as opposed to being quite RNG based (the difference between 5300 and 5700 on PW is a few missed/noncrit Judgements during AW). I also feel, we'll be much more consistent in our DPS results with the changes.
yea I am hoping that we can have a couple BiS setups put out and discussed before patch goes live, though it is quite hard to do without being certain about all the changes that have happened with this patch.
I'm particularly pleased with the facts that both hit and expertise ratings are close to perfect and the set has low haste and armor penetration. This leaves me free to gem and enchant for pure Srt/AP (+27 str for 3 blue sockets is pure love) or whatever I wish. As a jewelcrafter I can socket with 161 additional strength.
Properly gemmed and enchanted this set will put me very close to 4000 AP unbuffed.
This is an old post, for pre 3.1 BiS items, but I see a couple of items that could use some updating...
OntheHissay also posted this in Redcape's thread... [Adjust weights as necessary in case they change:]
Originally Posted by OnTheHissay
This link to the Wowhead tool contains Redcape's updated stat weightings for 3.1: Items - World of Warcraft
Using the updated numbers from that Wowhead link, I came up with what I think will be BIS for next patch, ignoring the 4p bonus. Since without the 4piece, there is way too much hit out there, I had to use the same methodology that I used to use for finding a BIS mage setup (back when the tier gear wasn't worth it in classic/early bc). Basically, any gear that does not have hit on it, but is better than any other item with hit (ie [Favor of the Dragon Queen]) should automatically be used in any setup. Therefore, the following items should be in every BIS set:
I did not include weapons or trinkets in my calculations, because Wowhead doesn't model their on use or proc effects, or weapon damage. It could be better to swap more hit items to hit-less items to use a [Grim Toll], but I believe it's better to use a [Fury of the Five Flights] as the 2nd trinket.
To determine which hit items I should be using, I recorded the DPS number given by wowhead for the bis item, and then recorded the DPS number for the next best item (with less hit) than the BIS. I then divided the difference in dps by the difference in hit to find how much DPS was lost per point of hit lost by switching to an item with less or no hit. I then picked the items with the highest dps loss / point of hit lost to use as my hit items, which leads me to the following gearset:
*Note that if you are using a [The Jawbone] (brings total expertise to 244), you should swap [Ruthlessness] for [Greatring of Collision] to avoid wasting expertise (brings total expertise back down to 212). I haven't quite figured out what to do about the dwarf racial though; the simplest method would be to just switch to t7.5 gloves though.
Using the updated numbers from that Wowhead link, I came up with what I think will be BIS for next patch, ignoring the 4p bonus. Since without the 4piece, there is way too much hit out there, I had to use the same methodology that I used to use for finding a BIS mage setup (back when the tier gear wasn't worth it in classic/early bc). Basically, any gear that does not have hit on it, but is better than any other item with hit (ie [Favor of the Dragon Queen]) should automatically be used in any setup.
I've said it before, creating a list of a 3.1 PreUlduar BiS Gear list is premature. The community currently has 2 stat weightings floating around (provided below) and it stands to reason both can't be right. I'm not saying A is right and B is wrong, I'm saying their weights promote a different gearing style. With such varied results (currently, all 3 spreadsheets spit out nearly the same information), I'm inclined to believe one of them, if not both, have their calculations slightly askew.
I am waiting for Exemplar to push out an updated version of Bellator's, or at least the numbers for it, so we can get more input on which setup is more optimal. Again, until then I really believe it's too early to post about such setups. I've personally created multiple gear sets using both numbers in preparation, but realistically, only one might be correct.
I would think the PvP Deadly gloves (5% more CS damage) in 3.1 would be BiS (ignoring the Ulduar items). I also would assume the Furious gloves would be ranked pretty high as well.
The 5% CS damage gain affects CS and the RV damage if it crits.
BTW, Wowhead has a weapon dps stat to use to compare weapons, so try around 410 for that value. Here is a link with the 410 number Items - World of Warcraft
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The way in which our spreadsheets seriously differ is expertise. The majority of the other stats are either fairly close, though hit is a notable exception. Because we obviously want to hit cap for both dps and mana regen purposes I don't think weighting hit is really all that useful since you have so much hit on gear you obviously are hitcapped. The interesting part is what the other stats on gear are worth so to maximize dps while being hitcapped.
I thought I would set out what expertise does on my sheet so that everyone can see and hopefully we can determine what its true value should be. I set the total expertise level on the sheet to zero and then to 6.5% and wrote down the dps of AA, CS, DS, and SoB/M with those two data points to give us some things to look at.
With zero expertise:
AA 1174
CS 702
DS 454
SoB 1390
With 6.5% expertise:
AA 1229
CS 728
DS 471
SoB 1552
Total dps difference of 260. Total expertise difference of 213 rating. Value of Expertise rating = 1.22 dps / expertise.
Comparing the % differences that expertise makes can give us a sense of whether or not each attack type is being affected correctly. The numbers below are the % increase in dps that 6.5% expertise is granting:
AA 4.7%
CS 3.7%
DS 3.7%
SoB 11.7%
The numbers for AA, CS and DS look exactly right at a glance. Because of the melee 1 roll system, expertise does not affect the critical damage of CS/DS at all, and they have huge crits between RV and the metagem. AA seems correct because we are getting very close to 1.5 AA hits per swing because of a effective 50% crit rate and hit capping, so that seems bang on.
SoB is obviously benefitting HUGELY from expertise, which is of course what this whole discussion hinges on. The reason expertise has gone way up is because now our seal is going to do substantially more damage and benefits twice from expertise, once on the white/CS/DS hit and once on the seal attack roll. It gets a full 6.5% benefit from strikes connecting more and then somewhat less benefit from making the seal get dodged less.
These numbers look exactly right to me, so I would love to see the numbers from RAWR done in a similar fashion so we can find out where the discrepancies are and find out which sheet has an error in it.
Using the updated numbers from that Wowhead link, I came up with what I think will be BIS for next patch, ignoring the 4p bonus. Since without the 4piece, there is way too much hit out there, I had to use the same methodology that I used to use for finding a BIS mage setup (back when the tier gear wasn't worth it in classic/early bc). Basically, any gear that does not have hit on it, but is better than any other item with hit (ie [Favor of the Dragon Queen]) should automatically be used in any setup. Therefore, the following items should be in every BIS set:
I did not include weapons or trinkets in my calculations, because Wowhead doesn't model their on use or proc effects, or weapon damage. It could be better to swap more hit items to hit-less items to use a [Grim Toll], but I believe it's better to use a [Fury of the Five Flights] as the 2nd trinket.
To determine which hit items I should be using, I recorded the DPS number given by wowhead for the bis item, and then recorded the DPS number for the next best item (with less hit) than the BIS. I then divided the difference in dps by the difference in hit to find how much DPS was lost per point of hit lost by switching to an item with less or no hit. I then picked the items with the highest dps loss / point of hit lost to use as my hit items, which leads me to the following gearset:
*Note that if you are using a [The Jawbone] (brings total expertise to 244), you should swap [Ruthlessness] for [Greatring of Collision] to avoid wasting expertise (brings total expertise back down to 212). I haven't quite figured out what to do about the dwarf racial though; the simplest method would be to just switch to t7.5 gloves though.
Why aren't you using the leather gloves off maly? [Frosted Adroit Handguards] Using those weightings, they're bis by a long shot.
These numbers look exactly right to me, so I would love to see the numbers from RAWR done in a similar fashion so we can find out where the discrepancies are and find out which sheet has an error in it.
Thank you very much for this Redcape, this was the exact thing I was looking for from each end. And like you said, most of the numbers were equal except for a large difference in Expertise, which is the major question.
Originally Posted by Durinix
Why aren't you using the leather gloves off maly? [Frosted Adroit Handguards] Using those weightings, they're bis by a long shot.
My guess is Raencloud was putting together a Plate only gearset, since many of us are bound by some loot rules (For example, I can't win leather unless a Rogue/Druid doesn't want it for main set).
Sure, I'm bound by the same loot rules as well but the rogues and feral druids will have it at some point. After that, there's no reason not to use them (if you win the roll or whatever loot distribution method you use). Knowing that they're BiS is useful (even if you've got to wait a while before you get them). =)
The weightings of hit will be just as important as any other stat in the way that even if there's enough +hit to go around, there will still be pieces which may come ahead at the cost of +hit or the upgrade of one piece to another where stats are radically too different to make an assessment based on how much hit is lost.
Cutting corners now will only hurt later and nailing down everything with accuracy will make things a lot easier for everyone who uses these tools to decide what's better.
We gotta start thinking if t8 4 set bonus is worth more than best in slots as well. So far, we know there's a good helm and a good pants that drop in hard modes. Both of these items, by themselves, would be best in slot. Equiping them both would break t8 4 piece set bonus.
Here's what im looking at so far, keeping the 2 set bonus:
This was put together with the help from Rawr 2.2.0b5 (with the ret.dll linked earlier on this thread). Note that i'm human with Blacksmithing and Mining as professions.
Note: I believe all items were updated with their current stats on the PTR (which may not be on whats on wowhead). However, it's possible more changes to itemisation will happen for a few items.
You would gain 13str, 45sta, 48 haste, but lose 5 crit rating and 84arp. With that set up used on my previous post, Battlelord's Plate Boots would give me a loss of 7dps. Note that the +48sta on Battlelord's plate boots, is in a way, wasted itemisation in regards to dps (and they both have the same ilvl). It's possible blizz will re-itemize this item, as it did with some of the other gear (or already did, but i havent seen the new stats yet).
There are lots of non red sockets in that set up, people with jewelcrafting will have to decide where their prismatics are best placed. May also want to look into some non pure strength gems since a lot of the set bonuses have strength in them.
This has already been repeated a few times, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears...
There's no point in wasting time comparing BiS gear sets when changes are still being made weekly to our core abilities. If you want to use the current accepted stat weightings to figure out what you think BiS is going to be, feel free, but there's no reason to post it here, because it will almost certainly be different next week. Until we actually have a full Ulduar loot list, confirmation from the blues that we're going live as we are on the PTR, and 1 (not 2 or 3) accepted stat weightings let's try to keep the discussion to information that WILL be relevant when we go live. Sifting through 3 pages of bs to find 1 post worth reading is getting a bid tedious.
Agreed. At the very least, they belong in the spreadsheet thread so that the developers of Rawr/spreadsheets can use that to compare items. You aren't going to get your cookie-cutter information yet, so don't bother. Not to mention from the quickly reverted change to CS, the wording of GC suggested we can still expect a PvE-oriented secondary effect to come... who knows how that will affect stats?
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
This has already been repeated a few times, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears...
There's no point in wasting time comparing BiS gear sets when changes are still being made weekly to our core abilities. If you want to use the current accepted stat weightings to figure out what you think BiS is going to be, feel free, but there's no reason to post it here, because it will almost certainly be different next week. Until we actually have a full Ulduar loot list, confirmation from the blues that we're going live as we are on the PTR, and 1 (not 2 or 3) accepted stat weightings let's try to keep the discussion to information that WILL be relevant when we go live. Sifting through 3 pages of bs to find 1 post worth reading is getting a bid tedious.
How is the Uldar loot list relevant to the current BiS discussion? Most of the discussion has been on gear available on live. This is important as if we want to do our best when walking into Uldar we should be in the best gear set we can be in. Why has it started before we've been pinned down and before we have one stat weighting? We're going to be the last class to be finalised. Once we're done, the patch will probably be rolled out on the next Tuesday. We need to get the BiS discussion rolling earlier so that there can actually be a discussion. If there really is a problem for it to happen in this thread then someone make a new thread.
How is the Uldar loot list relevant to the current BiS discussion? Most of the discussion has been on gear available on live. This is important as if we want to do our best when walking into Uldar we should be in the best gear set we can be in. Why has it started before we've been pinned down and before we have one stat weighting? We're going to be the last class to be finalised. Once we're done, the patch will probably be rolled out on the next Tuesday. We need to get the BiS discussion rolling earlier so that there can actually be a discussion. If there really is a problem for it to happen in this thread then someone make a new thread.
Because the Ulduar gear isn't the only factor. There is still room for them to adjust our DPS, and yet again we are still expecting a PVE oriented secondary effect on CS. Since our stat weights are going to change due to these, current gear BIS discussion is still fairly pointless. Do it if you want, but don't clutter the theory thread until we get word from blizzard that we are looking at a final or near-final product.
As a side note, Ermad and I just discovered that we were counting hit/exp THREE times instead of twice... which puts current weights at:
Stat
Rawr
Redcape
Strength
1.68
1.70
Hit
1.52
1.69
Expertise
1.29
1.19
Crit
0.90
0.80
Agility
0.85
0.77
Haste
0.77
0.75
Armor Pen
0.70
0.68
AP
.66
.67
This is with Rawr using the following rotation (which it found optimal):
cs - 6.48 s
judge - 7.59 s
cons - 11.18 s
exo - 16.75 s
ds - 11.17 s
how - 6 s (for last 20%)
Priority:
CS > HoW > Judge > DS > Cons > Exo
(with 4pc)
As you can see, our numbers are now much closer. Hit/expertise are still the stats which we have the highest disagreement on (which could likely be explained by a shift in rotation/ability priority), but the order of value remains intact.
Last edited by Zurm : 03/30/09 at 12:41 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
03/28/09, 1:00 PM
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