I'm still doubting that even with the incoming SoC buff (which is probably just to help out PVP) and the new badge libram that SoC would rival Blood/Martyr as the PVE seal of choice. Can be solved with Mathematics at your leisure
Hi guys! I've been reading and coming here for a while now and finally decided to make an account. I have a huge favor and question to start off ^^; Ive been really stumped the past few weeks andI have NO idea what im doing wrong im lucky to be doing about the dps i was doing at 70 with 2400ish (pre 3.0 godly patch) where everyone else is atleast doing 3500+ -_-.. Went from going top 5 in dps in raids to 9th-12th and i hate it and feel very useless..
thats the most up to date.. still got a few lv 70epics that im trying to replace like my shoulders that never drop << but its not really THAT bad.. but im hit capped finally and still kinda low crit and ap but finally starting to pick up a good amount of upgrades to replace crap and not have to use hit gems and go back to str
anyway.. Mind giving me a few pointers to push up my DPS and get it ugh atleast over 3k for every fight a nice dps rotation anything.. ive looked at stuff yet everything i try i seem to fail at. Thanks guys =)! Ive read alot of the stuff around and still have noo idea what im doing wrong but will continue to look around and post and enjoy my stay here thanks again guys!
Assuming unrealistic optimum: 1000 * 10/45 = 223 AP
Assuming an average 15 seconds to proc effect past icd: 1000 *10/60 = 167 AP
So, ignoring AW for the moment, you have somewhere between (at best) 223 AP and 167 AP for the Mirror vs. 112 AP for Loatheb's Shadow.
Now factoring in AW, those 112 AP will be worth 20% more (note: this is not the perfect way of doing it, but it's very close to exact), equating to roughly 134 AP.
So even if we factor AW for Loatheb's Shadow and nothing for Mirror, Mirror is a chunk ahead. Now keep in mind in practice, Mirror will also have some uptime during AW/heroism/other effects improving it even further.
Lengthy reply for a simple thing, but I've seen this question thrown around too frequently. It's unusual to expect the badge trinket to be better than the drop, though remember they're the same item level and the math for it is very clear.
Thanks for the math, Avitus. Looking back over the last couple week's raids, I think 15 seconds is pretty reasonable estimate for average time to proc. Given that, do you think it's worth delayiing the first use of AW for the proc?
Thanks for the math, Avitus. Looking back over the last couple week's raids, I think 15 seconds is pretty reasonable estimate for average time to proc. Given that, do you think it's worth delayiing the first use of AW for the proc?
When you use AW really depends on the fight, and it's mostly up to you to determine the optimal time for it's use. Most of the time you should have a decent idea of how long an encounter will be, so you can figure out how many times it's possible to use it and don't wait until you're pushing a use off at the end to pop the first one.
One possible exception would be during Malygos, you might want to wait until you have a high stack of power sparks to hit AW, even if it means passing up another use during the add phase.
And it appears we have a winner on the judgement bug cause (from the official forums, of all places?!):
Ghostcrawler: I just tested this with a warrior friend.
100% reproduction using Org heroic training dummy using all 3 judgements:
Warrior puts up Thunderclap.
Just to make things simple, I wait till thunderclap has about 12 seconds left on it.
I cast judgement. Hit successful.
Thunderclap falls off.
8 seconds later
I cast judgement. Nothing happens, no mana, no damage. Judgement goes on cooldown and consumes it's mana cost. Judgement debuff does not refresh.
I wait for cooldown, judgement fails again, just like before.
Judgement debuff, + heart of the crusader fall off the target.
Cast judgement. Judgement successful.
-------------
Debuff's rolling off the target seem to be causing this problem. As new debuffs are applied; they fall off before my judgement does (which it never will unless overwritten by another pally) due it having a 100% uptime at hit cap. Problem is this can cause 2 + judgement failures waiting for the debuff to fall off.
As an earlier poster said, as the judgement debuff moves from position X to Y, is where this bug seems to be happening.
This also explains away the crit relationship theories using hammer of justice. The debuff Hammer of Justice is rolling off before you re-apply your first judgement after casting Hammer of Justice.
EDIT:
It should also be noted, that as long as the judgement debuff maintained it's position on the target, IE keep refreshing Thunderclap, every judgement was successful.
This explains a HELL of a lot - why this bug is so common in raids (debuffs), why the HoJ trick works (it is a debuff), and why this bug is not unique to any one seal or judgement. After a little bit of testing myself using various helpers (warlocks, hunter stings, other paladins) I can confirm that this debuff theory is sound - if we can just get a fraps or something of this behavior we can show it to blizzard, and likely have it patched in with 3.0.8.
Last edited by Arikah : 12/15/08 at 2:30 AM.
Reason: added forum link
I recently ran a similar analysis to CaptBooyah, with the intent of seeing whether prioritizing Consecration over Crusader Strike and Divine Storm actually results in a net gain in damage. I conducted my analysis using the same assumptions, in an environment without the 4-piece T7 bonus (i.e. 8sec Judgement cooldowns). I compared three situations:
First was a priority list that went Judgement -> Consecration -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm, versus a single target. Second was a priority list that went Judgement -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm -> Consecration, with priority given to Judgement should it "conflict" (come up within 0.5s of when Crusader Strike would be used). Third was a Judgement -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm -> Consecration priority system, on a strict FCFS basis (i.e. not waiting the extra 0.5 seconds to use Judgement instead of Crusader Strike).
The average damage figures used for my analysis are identical:
In this scenario, prioritizing Consecration over Crusader Strike and Divine Storm results in a trade-off of one Consecration for one Crusader Strike, resulting in a damage differential of 1641, a largely insignificant (<1% of total) figure. Interestingly, it appears to not matter whether Consecration is prioritized below or above Divine Storm, due to them sharing a cooldown time (both being 10 seconds in duration). Also, absent the 4-piece T7 bonus, it appears that focusing on a strict FCFS basis with Consecration prioritized above CS will result in the most damage overall, since waiting 0.5s for Judgement lowers total damage done by a significant amount (~6-7%).
Keep in mind though it's about +400g (on my server) for about a ~1 DPS difference over the 8 Str/ 12stam one (and in the range of ~3DPS over the 7 str/11 stam gem).
It's actually not hard to get a Enchanted Tear. Took me 35min to farm the Clams needed, also got the "Greens" to disenchant for the dust needed. Also the tear gives you rather nice "freedom" when it comes to gem choices as it's prismatic.
But then again it will be out weight by the next generation of gems, hence the +20 Str and +10 Str and +10 Crit/Hit ones.
And it appears we have a winner on the judgement bug cause (from the official forums, of all places?!):
This explains a HELL of a lot - why this bug is so common in raids (debuffs), why the HoJ trick works (it is a debuff), and why this bug is not unique to any one seal or judgement. After a little bit of testing myself using various helpers (warlocks, hunter stings, other paladins) I can confirm that this debuff theory is sound - if we can just get a fraps or something of this behavior we can show it to blizzard, and likely have it patched in with 3.0.8.
Thank you very much for pointing this out.
This was quite of driving me crazy, since I was beginning to think it was related to lag and some of the game mecanism to try to minimize its effect, which lead me to try to delay the cast of my judgement, which surely wasn't good at all.
I also wasn't convinced with the judgment-switching theory, but now I can create my /castsequence macro while reasonnably thinking it will have a positive impact (although there still seems to be cases where we still get the problem).
Anyway, typical programming bug on list objects, at least we can hope it will be fixed in a timely manner now.
I still feel that [Bandit's Insignia] is still very solid, especially as proc stacks with dmg multipliers. Also as previously mentioned [Fury of the Five Flights] is good but situational. Surely the passive AP of the insignia is better than the mirrors proc?
With regards to the judgement bug. This sometimes has me tearing my hair out as with bad luck the loss of overall damage and mana is huge. I have done some testing myself and it almost appeared that the problem was when two pallys had 3/3 heart of the crusader and when i was judging wisdom. When our prot pally respeced out of heart of the crusader and i started judging light the number of bugs dropped a lot. I do however have no WWS logs to back this up this is just my own findings.
Hopefully this problem can get fixed sooner rather than later cause i am getting rather fed up of times with what can be russian roulette dps.
Last edited by Rukiia : 12/15/08 at 8:42 AM.
Reason: horrible spelling
I still feel that [Bandit's Insignia] is still very solid, especially as proc stacks with dmg multipliers. Also as previously mentioned [Fury of the Five Flights] is good but situational. Surely the passive AP of the insignia is better than the mirrors proc?
The Fury is good, however it is better in the hands of a DW class, since they build up a stack fast, and we do not.
I added the proc of Bandit's (some magic damage) to Rawr, it said Mirror was better, but not by much. 1000 AP equaling ~160 AP is really good and it is great the 2nd best trinket comes from badges (not great that the best trinket costs 20k+).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
However I have a problem with the spreadsheet from Bellator that is linked in the first post and was wondering if anyone else have this too. Whenever I press "Auto-Gem", "Show Enchants/Sockets" on the Character tab or "Analyze items" on the Item Calc tab I get a "Run-time error '1004': Method 'Range' of object '_Global' failed".
Edit: I am using MS Office 2007 btw.
Anyone receiving error messages - please PM me. Also click to debug and let me know where in the macro it is failing. I'm working on Excel 2003 and we all know how compatible Microsoft is with its own products...
Also still interested if anyone wants to provide me Mail and Leather gear to throw in for the community.
Working on some tweaks/bug fixes from PM as well as updating for 3.0.8. Will release new version when the patch goes live with new mechanics (Vengeance 5stacks again? 6% more damage? Thanks, Blizzard!) and altered gear. Please PM me if I miss any gear changes!
Has anyone had the availability for extensive testing regarding hit rating needed to never miss a judgement?
I'm aware of the ghost hit, and due to this bug melee cap seems to be 5% according to my own testing, I have not been able to find the time to test with a large sum of judgements on a single target, can someone shed some light on this matter?
Have a question about the t7 4 piece bonus. How huge is this in the grand scheme? I've heard a lot of talk about people leaving points out of improved judgements to improve their rotation, but on a 7 second cooldown for our largest source of damage, how huge is this in terms of a DPS increase? The reason im asking is there are other pieces in naxx 25 and obs 25 that would be a potentially large upgrade over my t7, but it would break the 4 piece.
It is absolutely silly to leave points out of improved Judgement at this point to "improve your rotation". Its your highest damaging ability, shorter CD the better. That was a pre-3.0 mindset, and even then I wouldn't have suggested it.
As far as how good the 4pc is...Its been discussed a number of times here now, but 2pc is about a 1% increase in dps, and 4pc is about a 3% increase in dps. Now, will you get that same dmg increase by instead replacing set pieces with the leather and mail "best-in-slot"? Probably. I'd say to each their own at this point whether you want to go for your set bonus for increased dps, or just the best item in said slot to get similar dps.
So I guess the question comes down to actual numbers, then. Just how much more AP / Crit / etc.. would I need to pick up to make it worth breaking 4 piece?
Has anyone had the availability for extensive testing regarding hit rating needed to never miss a judgement?
In the past two weeks I have never missed anything in raids with 5% hit. However I have the ghost hit bug, other paladins do not.
Towards answering the "when to drop Tier pieces" question, the best tool I see is use one of the two spreadsheets/Rawr to get your dps with 4 piece, then multiply by 1.04% (to attempt to account for set bonuses). Then take out the Tier peices with new items to see your changed dps.
That isn't 100% correct, but you have to use the tools you have.
What is another thing to consider is the 5% hit people and 8% hit people will get different results, since needing another 100ish hit rating is a big diffence.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Another question, I picked up the darkmoon card:Greatness last night, and am currently using a 55 hit trinket and the mirror. I am currently exactly at hit cap (9%), but replacing the hit trinket drops me to 7.23. How concerned should I be about hit cap?
Another question, I picked up the darkmoon card:Greatness last night, and am currently using a 55 hit trinket and the mirror. I am currently exactly at hit cap (9%), but replacing the hit trinket drops me to 7.23. How concerned should I be about hit cap?
Thanks again.
5 vs 8% hit comes from a Precision bug that I and many others have on our characters.
Drop the 55 hit trinket even if you have a 8% hit cap since missing .77% of attacks isn't that bad.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
In the past two weeks I have never missed anything in raids with 5% hit. However I have the ghost hit bug, other paladins do not.
Towards answering the "when to drop Tier pieces" question, the best tool I see is use one of the two spreadsheets/Rawr to get your dps with 4 piece, then multiply by 1.04% (to attempt to account for set bonuses). Then take out the Tier peices with new items to see your changed dps.
That isn't 100% correct, but you have to use the tools you have.
What is another thing to consider is the 5% hit people and 8% hit people will get different results, since needing another 100ish hit rating is a big diffence.
If using the Bellator spreadsheet, do not alter the DPS. The 4 piece bonus is figured in as a 1 second reduction on effective usage - it does this math for you. However, item comparisons are on a one by one basis - you will only see the benefits of 4 piece if you already have 3 pieces equipped when you run a comparison.
You can adjust effective cooldown numbers as desired at the top of the character screen and if you wish to reduce your miss rate to a 5% cap you can alter this on the "DPS Calc" tab. Melee Miss is clearly labeled on the left.
Even with a personal 8% cap it is telling me 4 piece is better than other plate gear in those slots. I do not have mail or leather loaded so cannot comment.
Correction on hit - it has been proven that Precision pre-3.0 does not affect hit. Some who had Precision are at 8%, some who did not have it are at 5%. There is no common denominator - everyone is recommended to test their own hit. I recommend re-test when 3.0.8 comes out in case Blizzard fixes ghost hit.
Confirmation - everything I'm seeing makes Judgement appear to be on same hit cap as your melee (whether that is 5 or 8%).
------------------
Okay, we think we have been able to isolate this bug and put in a fix that prevents Judgements from failing any longer. Assuming a little more testing supports this conclusion we plan on hotfixing this.
Sorry you had to endure it for so long.
------------------
I've come up with 2 repeating cycles based on the FCFS system, but with a few tweaks in order to minimize clashes:
Note: These cycles follow the assumptions that u have infinite mana, there is no movement in the boss fight, you have the consecration glyph, you do not have the t7 4 set bonus, and that Judgement>CS>DS>Consecration (okay consecration is ranked last because of its mana cost, even though i'm assuming you can cast it infinitely. just bear with me)
The first cycle works on the rule that all casts are avoided if they clash with judgement. Note how by not casting CS at 23.5s, judgement can be cast at 24s, thus making the cycle repeatable. The cycle is also user-friendly, as it is very easy to remember:
Judge,CS,DS,Cons
Judge,CS,DS,Cons
Judge,CS
Repeat
The second cycle is a more pure FCFS system. Any cast is made as it comes out of cooldown. Priority is only used if more than one spell is out of cooldown at the same time (ie. if consecrate is out of cooldown it would be cast, even if judgement is less than a second from being out of cooldown). After playing around with a few pure FCPS cycles, I discovered that after varying amounts of time, enough clashes will occur for this cycle to begin and from there on out it repeats itself every 33.5s. Using this just gets you to the repeating part of any pure FCPS cycle without 30 seconds of unneccesary clashes as a precursor (at least that's what I think).
At first glance, the cycle isn't very user friendly, but by memorising the order of the first four spells, then simply pushing whatever is out of cooldown after that, the cycle will be locked in. If you're uncomfortable with casting consecration first in a boss fight, simply cast: Judgement, CS, DS then remember to consecrate after your second judgement and the cycle will be replicated.
Case for using consecration first: Assuming that most paladins at level 80 have around 5700 base mana, their initial judgement on a boss costs 285 mana and returns 855 mana from JotW, resulting in a waste of 570 mana. Consecrate is the only spell we have that costs more than 855 mana so that no mana is wasted. The obvious drawbacks are that its range is 8 yards instead of 10 and that it's useless if the boss will be moving at the beginning of the fight. The benefits are that no mana is wasted, it's a low threat first spell, it can't crit so it doesn't suffer from your judgement debuff not being up for 1.5s, and it fits nicely with cycle #2.
Conclusion: Unless my math has failed (it's late), cycle #2 will yield approximately 9 CS, 2 DS, and 2 Consecrates over cycle #1 in a 6min boss fight, but at the cost of 2 fewer casts of judgement.
Feedback and double-checks appreciated.
Last edited by littlejim : 12/16/08 at 4:55 AM.
Reason: Spelling Errors
12/14/08, 9:19 PM
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