You missed the other half of the items that haven't been discovered yet, making your list pointless.

As far as the megathread problem. I would propose a new ret thread be started at the release of 3.1 and another new thread for 3.2 etc. This eliminates the problem of people getting bad/old information by reading the first few pages of a thread.

I'm gonna have to agree, any BiS type gearlist has be taken as a work in progress, since we don't have all the gear. Most notably Yogg-Saron (normal and Hardmode) and Algalon who more than likely will have gear we're going to want(has there even been an end boss that hasn't dropped something we've wanted?). While it's nice to get a head start, more than likely it won't be accurate when all is said and done.

That said, I have a couple gearsets that I'm playing with in Rawr just to get a feel for what may be possible, but I wouldn't post it here, because as I said, when all is said and done, it more than likely won't be correct, and will end up just wasting forums space.

I agree with this idea. Ret has changed alot since 3.0 Hit, and it's pretty evident from the early part of this thread. Especially with how 3.1 brings a few pretty substantial changes. Every major patch seems to me like a good time to start up a new thread.

Well ideally whomever starts a thread assumes responsibility of the information in the first post and should keep it up to date or pass on the flag to a new custodian. A new thread per patch certainly makes sense when mechanics are changing as much as they will be in 3.1 and did in 3.0, but I doubt we'd need all new info come 3.2 (though limiting thread length is certainly a good idea to reduce shell shock for new readers).

Wasn't the theorycrafting think thank supposed to provide a wiki like framework so that once things were sorted out here they could be posted there along with links/etc. That would seem like a better solution than the not-always-obvious-if-it's-up-to-date first post bible format we have currently.

EDIT: goes to show how often I visit other forums -> the first post contents are in the ThinkThank... so it's just a matter of people knowing to go there in the first place.

Not a bad idea actually, since if you look at the first couple pages of posts they are things that don't even exist now (judgement bugs and such). When the patch rolls around I'll just make a new thread instead of updating this one, though the OP will just be the same format with updated info... the whole point is just to cull the old posts anyways. Even though the OP contents are basically copied as is into the thinktank, you can't gather data there en masse like our recent 2 roll system tests. That's why people look at the class mechanics sections way more I think, you can at least contribute something.

Also I'm getting requests for BiS set lists to be included in the OP, which would be great if we had access to more than half the loot; it just won't be possible until we are well into 3.1. There are a couple things we can get clarified in the meantime - can someone please post JoL ppm numbers, or is it just a flat 50% proc rate per swing? Or try and model how much mana/mp5 the SoB glyph will be worth, just use T7 BiS for now.

I like to use bracketed tidbits at the top of the post to indicate something has changed, or as it is right now to request info gathering!

JoW has a 15 ppm rate.

JoL seems to have between a 40% to 50% chance on melee/spell hit to heal you.

JoL is likely to be a 15 ppm just like JoW. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to sit behind a target dummy at the moment. If anyone does, then use seal of justice and judge on cooldown. Get another person to melee the mob as well (going through the combat log to find out how many procs were from the judgement and how many were from melee is painful). Another paladin and a rogue would be good. A mage casting fireball and a mage casting scorch as well would be good. Make sure that the paladin has a weapon from this list Weapons - Items - World of Warcraft

Post the wws's and I'd be happy to do the statistics. =)

Probably the latter, as compared to the equal buff, Improved Moonkin Form:

Your Moonkin Aura also causes affected targets to gain 3% haste and you to gain 15% of your spirit as additional spell damage.

Most likely just a weird tooltip.

Your wording could be misconstrued as meaning your current haste rating is increased by 3%, whereas the aim of the talent is to give you 3% worth of haste rating.

Wouldn't 10/7/54 technically be the best DPS build?

Obviously, you pick up the 54 in ret and 5 in prot. The rest of the points are just filler, and lots seem to like the 5% healing, and extra duration/absorption from SS.

Ignoring utility from the prot tree, It would seem that 15% intel is actually a very minor DPS buff. Exorcism is a holy spell, based on spell crit. Int gives spell crit to paladins. After all is said and done:
Ret+Prot damage talents < Ret+prot damage talents + 1-2% exocism crit.

Does anyone know whether or not Aura Mastery includes Swift Retribution or Sanctified Retribution?

Aura Mastery will not double the secondary effect of the auras. So the talent part of it (6% healing for prot, 3% haste for ret) isn't doubled, the "base" aura is.

According to WoWWiki's section on Intellect (Attributes - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft), everyone requires 166.6 Intellect for 1% Spell Crit. A fully raid buffed Retribution Paladin has roughly 245 Intellect. Divine Intellect brings that up to 281.75, for a gain of 36.75 Intellect, or .22%~ Spell Crit. Another way to look at it is an extra Exorcism crit in every 450~ casts.

You would see slightly higher gains from Replenishment and Divine Plea, but only to the amount of roughly 18mp5.

Technically, it is our highest DPS spec by negligible fractions. The benefits of sub-speccing into Holy are so marginal/situational compared to Protection. Currently, anyhow.

(Give or take a few .001%s as the numbers were done w/ Blood Elf mana)

No. It will multiply, however, with the bonus Improved Devotion and Sanctified Retribution (in 3.1, it's Improved Retribution Aura currently) provide to the base part of the spell. Baseline Devotion is +1205 Armor. With the talent, it's +1807. With the talent and AM popped, it's +3615.

Correct, but you won't get 12% healing, or 6% haste was what I was trying to say.

It all depends on the situation (not the intellect part, 1-2% is a complete overstatement). It might be the highest dps to do that, but we're talking about end game raiding here, which in this case is Ulduar hard modes. Giving up a powerful SS and better JoL/DS healing procs (keep in mind 5% JoL helps the entire raid) to get ~.22% exorcism crit means you're spending more time not attacking in battle with high AOE damage.

In conclusion, it's higher DPS on the dummy, but it's probably lower DPS on any battle that means anything.


Minor is right here. It's been stated that even without the SoB glyph, mana isn't particularly a problem, and 15% intellect is a very small buff to divine plea regen for when it might be a problem. If you're having mana problems, grab the SoB glyph, but don't spec into Divine Intellect.

Even if the int boost was actually noticeable, 17 in Prot would be the superior Ulduar spec because a dead dps does 0 dps, and basically removing Blood self damage (all that AoE will proc SS) will help a lot with staying alive.

Hey guys, I'm trying to get a few things straight for my own clarity.

From the discussions so far, a build of 0/17/54 will be our go-to raid build. The justification for this is the additional healing from Divinity plus the Martyr/Blood self damage absorption from DS/DG is worth it.

I'm somewhat confused though from the seemingly conflicting opinions within this thread. Let me explain. On one hand we have players saying that if we are to be selected in a DPS role, then we should maximise our DPS (I'm not saying we have maximum DPS, just the best we can be). From this perspective, should we not pick a spec that does exactly this, maximise DPS at the expensive of utility? If, for arguments sake, a 10/7/54 build is the maximum DPS possible (with appropriate glyphs), then why shouldn’t we be using use this?

On the other hand we have the argument that we are, for better or worse, a hybrid class. While our DPS is acceptable, the fact that we *can* heal should be utilised to our maximum efficiency. Divinity certainly qualifies for this as well as DS. In addition, DG will allow us to alleviate our own self damage from Blood/Martyr, thus helping our the raid healers.

My problem with the later, is that are we not simply going back to where we are now with 3.0.9? It has been confirmed that our Divine Shield is not proced from Blood but the damage is absorbed once it has proced. Doesn't this mean we have to 'jump in the fire' to maximise our DPS? Isn't the 0/17/54 spec no better than what we have now, all we are doing is simply giving our healers a little relief and providing a bit to the raid overall?

If we are to enter a raid as a DPS slot, shouldn't we try to maximise our DPS to be as high as we possibly can, and leave the healing to dedicated healers? If we use 17 in prot, just to cover damage from our own self inflicted seal, why not simply remove that from the equation? Wouldn't this suggest that a 10/7/54 type build to be what we really should be using (I’m assuming here that appropriated glyphed Righteousness has the higher DPS as I recall a discussion about this in previous pages that said damage was similar to Blood?)?

Just playing devils advocate here guys.


On another note, if in fact we go with 0/17/54, this build suggests that Divine Shield should actually be part of our full DPS rotation? Has this been factored in to the current FCFS priority?

Trouble is the DPS gain from a 10/7/54 spec over a 0/17/54 spec is so miniscule compared to the high utility from the second spec that it's just not worth it. An extra 0.22% crit on Exorcism and 18 MP5 vs +5% JoL healing, next to no recoil damage and raid-saving utility? I'll take the Prot talents every time.

I'm assuming we only use Divine Shield and Sacrifice in emergencies: losing 50% of your personal DPS for 12 seconds vs a raid wipe... do we even need to debate that ?

This is a false assumption and thus causing mistaken conclusion. You can review earlier in the thread.

From least to most
5. SoC > untalented, unglyphed Righteousness.
4. 5/5 Seals of the Pure puts Unlyphed Righteousness > Unglyphed Command.
3. Glyph Command > Unglyphed SotP Righteousness.
2. Glyph + SotP Righteousness > Glyph Command.
1. SoB is superior to all the above.

Dropping any of the 3 "core" Glyphs (Cons, Exo, Judge) for Glyph of Command or Glyph of Seal of Righteousness is an overall loss of DPS.

SoR is never your best seal. In some builds it can be "less bad" than Command. The thought was on fights where you could not afford to use Blood and had to drop to another seal, SotP would make Righteousness better than Command. If you spec 0/17/54 there should not be a fight where you cannot afford Blood.

I did a test on Sapphiron last week (on live), I popped Sacred Shield every 25 seconds or so and used Blood extensively. My health was at a happier state and I took less overall damage (AOE + recoil) than I have in the past using solely Command (only AOE, no recoil). Once 3.1 hits and we the talents improve SS, it will definitely be a DPS increase since it should allow constant all-out DPSing, even in heavy AOE situations. I believe Zurm or Avitus had a nice anecdote of using SS and Blood on PTR and being at the bottom of damage received - AOE + recoil and still took less damage than every single other person in the raid only suffering AOE. Results seem to speak for themselves.

Hamslammer's math for Divine Int is correct - it's ridiculously tiny mana gain, and in my Bellator's spreadsheet it increased DPS by .3. That's about one third of a single point of DPS for 5 talent points vs the ability to eat AOE and recoil and survive at maximum Blood DPS.

This is the main selling point Rickety. AoE damage in Ulduar is everywhere, so JoL becomes less of a luxury and more of a necessity. While 5% of 6-800 doesn't sound like a whole lot, it adds up very quickly when you consider that everyone in the raid is procing it at least every few seconds. The fact that you can now absorb almost all your SoB damage while making raid healing easier is just gravy. Live raid>Dead raid, so Divinity+Divine Guardian wins over a dps increase that is essentially impossible to notice.

Rickety, think of it this way: if you are not taking damage from the encounter, then SoB self-damage is easy to heal and now, with the JoB damage being lowered, much easier to predict. JoL combined with a HoT here and there or CH jump will do the trick. The problem with SoB/JoB damage is that it comes on top of boss AoE damage and that the two in combination make the Ret Paladin a liability to the raid. It is with such fights that the new SS becomes so valuable.

You don't need to jump in the fire for SS to proc because on fights where you aren't taking any damage other than recoil you aren't in danger of gibbing yourself with a JoB crit.

Utility abilities like these wouldn't be any more part of our rotation than stuff we already have like art of war FoL procs, Lay on Hands, or Hand of Salv. All these abilities have the opportunity to prevent a wipe (or at least a certain person's death, possible our own), but that doesn't mean we'll use them every single fight.

To me, the big reason to go 17 points in Prot is the 1 minute duration on Sacred Shield. Less worrying about SoB/JoB recoil means more focusing on DPS. The rest is just extra utility which will come in handy in specific situations,

edit: Actually, based on other parts in your post, I think maybe you meant Sacred Shield when you said "Divine Shield"? I was previously assuming that you meant Divine Shield + Divine Sacrifice combo. If you actually meant Sacred Shield, then yeah that would be part of our DPS rotation. But with a 1 minute CD, it could easily be slipped into any downtime where all abilities are on CD, just like Divine Plea is now

With all this mention of the 0/17/54 spec, I figured I'd throw up a link for those who have no idea what we're talking about. You'd be looking at something like this: 0/17/54. The 4 in Toughness is debateable and can be moved around due to personal preference, but the rest is pretty much locked to maximize utility and DPS.