To be clear then, has it been demonstrated that taking damage from seal/judgement of blood does proc SS? I thought I saw someone mention a page or two ago that it did not, but I keep seeing folks mention that prot talents are useful because of SS absorbing almost all of the self-inflicted damage in Ulduar.

No it does not. But Ulduar encounters have LOTS of AoE/damage (and this is pretty universal, I can't name one boss that doesn't have consistant raid damage in some form). SS will be proccing all the time, so the damage it mitigates (while it may not actually be your seal/judgement recoil) will sort of cancel out that recoil, and from my tests, then some. Scaling with SoL, it's actually quite powerful, mixed with the fact that AoW heals no longer reset the swing timer and that the proc increases FoL crit chance, its a pretty powerful combination.

A problem with Ret in Naxx is if you are good dps you are #2-4 in damage taken, and there was nothing you could do about it.

This issue can be fixed in Ulduar if you keep up SS 100% on bosses (which is easy with a one minute duration). Basically the SS shields will make you take as much damage as the Warrior beside you.

The big change to make this viable was the "bug" that made Ret's spell power not add to SS was fixed, so soon it will absorb a lot more damage.

Lurker here.

I notice that in all the 0/17/54 specs that no one is taking SoC. Isn't SoC our solo and sometime goto seal on fights like Thaddius? Why remove it completely? Why not take out 1 in PoJ and place it on SoC. 0/17/54

Yes, it will suck to not have 15% speed increase.....but I think 8% is better than nothing.

The point of the 0/17/54 spec is to not have to worry about switching to SoC, since Sacred Shield will be up. A 7% loss in movement speed is a DPS loss. So is speccing into SoC. This spec is about maximizing DPS and survivability at once, and losing points in PoJ is never a good option.

New prelim 3.1 version of Bellator's released. Lots of changes, tweaks, hopefully quality of life updates. Barring any last minute PTR changes it should model what goes live (we hope). Obviously still missing any unknown loot - as correct on the Str gear changes as I could research.

Accessible via Filefront (Huzzah for its return!) here, or on private hosting here. Again, thanks to Psychosomatic (and others who offered) for the private hosting space.

Two roll specials dramatically increased the desirability for Hit and Expertise. I've personally swung back around to the Hit Cap conclusion based on output from the spreadsheet and had to tweak auto-gemming appropriately. On the plus side this means some more socket bonuses may be available to non-JCers.

Last thing - remember the DPS is more or less modeling best scenario, while the mana usage is more or less modeling worst scenario. Mana is not as bad as some setups can make it appear - in general I'd say it's superior/equal to live without having to depend on SA.

As always, PM me if you find glitches, bad math, or think of an improvement.

with SS fixed, SoC is not viable in any circumstance, not even for farming tbh, the DPS you lose is > the extra damage you would take from SoB recoil, and believe me, with all the AOE damage in 3.1, that extra 7% move speed you would lose from taking SoC over 2/2 PoJ can be the difference between life or death.

The Ret tree has basically been agreed on in the last few pages of this thread, personal preference in the Prot tree ( 2/3 Stoicism or 2/5 Toughness) fillers (for 2/2 DG) is the only thing left +/- open.

EDIT:___________________________
Note: This is all things being equal, remember this is the PTR, things can turn around overnight, talent tress might change and our builds would end up quite different, so for now this seems to be the agreed builds, but until it goes live (and sometimes not even then), nothing is final.

Well I understand why the prot spec is more desirable, no question there.

I guess what I was getting at is if we have to spec for survivability to do PvE DPS, something is fundamentally wrong. If speccing for maximum DPS is not viable, our class needs further adjustment.

I'll still probably spec 0/17/54, as kepping up a SS should prevent blood recoil+boss AoE colliding resulting in an instagib.

Thanks heaps for the your valuable comments guys This is just what I was looking for.

In terms of the 10 points in Holy, I hadn't even considered Int as a factor really and thought it was just filler points from the five that you put into Seals of the Pure. I had recalled the discussions previously on the value of Int and agreed with them so my apologies for not specifically stating that. My main argument for that particular spec was my assumption that Seal of Righteousness was comparable to Blood (while I am alliance and use Martyr, I'll use Blood exclusively to avoid confusion ) in DPS. Since this was clarified by Exemplar as being a false assumption, I'll need look no further into it

I'm sold on more utility My use of terms was a tad confusing as I myself get confused with all the 'shield' and 'divine' spells I hardly know what the hell I'm talking about :/ Yes, I did mean Sacred Shield as part of an actual rotation and since further comments imply a 100% uptime of this, I had thought that figuring this into a rotation would be a necessity. However, since it's on a 1 minute cooldown, I don't think this is going to be a huge factor as pointed out by tarja, I can group them in with any of my other utility abilities, including AoW FoL ...

Thanks guys, you've been a big help

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm a little lost as to why everyone is taking Imp. Might as part of the 0-17-54 spec. Don't the Holy Pallies still pick that one up? If they don't, then the reason for us picking it up is obvious---I just haven't kept up on what Holy is doing come 3.1
Obviously, it can be a raid benefit, but I just really, really don't want to go without divine purpose. Both for the stun removal in random world PVP, but also for the chance to resist random-target boss abilities. I know it's selfish of me, but is it understandably selfish? Or should I really spec into might?
I was expecting just to be the Kings bitch come patch day.

Fallacious logic. This is the equivalent of arguing a DPS warrior could not pick up Toughness (tier 3 Prot), which would increase her armour and therefore increase AP through Armored to the Teeth.

We cannot pick up Holy Power for 5% more Holy crit, or Purifying Power for increased Exorcism crits.

Just because a talent exists, impacts DPS, and you could reach it doesn't mean it should be in a DPS spec - hopefully you're driven to more desirable DPS talents and you can't reach it. It's the dessert after a 20 course meal. Nice to know it's there, but we're full, thanks.

Not being able to pick up every DPS increasing talent is something the Ret community desires - it makes choices necessary. Although we'd like this to be because of tasty talents we have to agonize between and pick and choose rather than because we run out of DPS talents except for ones with too many non-DPS pre-reqs to effectively reach.

Don't think survivability, think utility. Divinty + JoL procs is enormous. Divine Guardian to increase SS absorb and duration is icing on the cake.

Since we're already discussing specs, I want to toss out an idea that I've been considering for a combined PVE/PVP spec without having to respec: 0/18/53. First of all, this assumes that you already have a Moonkin or 2nd Ret Paladin to cover Swift Retribution, and a DPS warrior or other Paladin to cover Imp BoM. If your raid always has those classes (which will be a common situation for many guilds, such as mine), then you can actually get every single talent that actually boosts PVE DPS, while picking up almost every talent that has any relevance to PVP.

The only talent that you miss is the 2nd point in Divine Guardian (or 2nd point in Imp HoJ if you go that way instead). So I guess my main question is whether people who have experience in Ulduar PTR fights think that you would feel a noticeable difference in Sacred Shield uptime between 45 second or 60 second duration.

Obviously the main concern for any PVE spec discussed in this thread is that you need to be able to fulfill a PVE DPS role at 100% capacity. But for fights with enough movement and target switching, there may not really be much practical difference between SS at 45 or 60 second duration, and it would be really great to be able to combine every useful PVE and PVP talent into one spec if you are able to do so without sacrificing any effectiveness (especially if you plan your dual-spec to be prot or holy, like myself). Also it's worth mentioning that even a couple of the PVP talents like Vindication and Imp HoJ have possible PVE benefits for fighting adds, and interrupting spellcasts, respectively.

You should be speccing into might (and yes, IMO you are being selfish!). Our holy pallies have mentioned they plan to go sub-prot next patch to get DG as well (and I suspect most holy pallies will do this, because sacred shield is an important ability for them when healing a tank). Dual specs is coming next patch, if you want your pvp talents get them that way.

That being said, if you are dead-set on getting pvp talents in a pve spec, you should do it at your OWN cost, which would likely mean losing DG, making you more of a crutch than a boon.

No, stop right there please. This thread (and the entire EJ forum) is for min/maxing, if you want to cut corners fine, but don't suggest it as the ideal spec for those who want to perform at the pinnacle of their class. You're trying to cut out some of the key reasons to bring a ret paladin to raids. While Imp Bom *can* be replaced by a warrior or poorly specced holy paladin, its less effective in the hands of a warrior (duration/range) and gimps the other pally. And swift retribution you can't replace with a moonkin. There are too many fights in ulduar that require spread out raids and attacking multiple targets, and you simply need as many of these buffs as possible.

Just a nitpick, but is it really a poor spec idea? The holy paladin's only other choice is Improved Judgement, and I don't see a holy paladin being able to judge every 8 seconds in tough encounters. This is of course if you aren't talking about the new Holy/DG spec.

I agree that the thread is all about min/maxing for PVE purposes only. My argument/question is that I believe that since our talent trees are so barren, it may be possible to combine a PVE and PVP spec into one, while STILL retaining maximum capacity for PVE.

For example, my raid runs with 2 Ret Paladins. So even if you argue that Moonkins can't cover the haste buff due to range issues or that battleshout gimps a DPS warrior (which I don't entirely buy, but let's assume so for now), then the 2nd Ret Paladin can easily do BoM and Swift Retribution. So how am I cutting corners now? The only thing that I see being skimped on is the Sacred Shield duration, which was originally my question, about how important this would really be.

Well, first off, it's sort of forcing the second ret paladin into those 2 talents just so you can get the PvP talents that you want. Second off, are you planning on respeccing every time the other ret paladin or moonkin can't make it to a raid?

That's a bit of a contradictory statement. If you're focusing on PvE why bother worrying about PvP?

Remember that the additional points in Prot are fluff. They are, regardless of how much utility can be provided, not necessary to increase your damage potential. If you want to spend more points in Ret or in different talents in Prot because you do a lot of PvP/Arenas: then do it. The only "required" points would look something like 0/5/54. Whether or not you have Divine Guardian and Divine Sacrifice is not going to hurt your DPS potential. Admittedly there's the flip side to the coin where it may impact your survivability: but that's something different.

Survivability-utility aside, there are 12 "free" talent points to do what you want with them. Use them how you see fit.

On the first part, in my raid's case, the other Ret Paladin PVPs as holy, so Ret PVP talents are of no use for him. Also I'll be dualspeccing Ret/Prot so I would not be the reliable bringer of buffs anyways, as I could be Prot on any given fight. Your mileage may vary, depending on your raid composition and peoples' plans for dual specs.

On the second part, I guess I didn't really make that clear, but I think it goes without saying that you go grab Imp BoM or 3% haste if the buff is missing. I never argued that it should be the new ideal cookie cutter spec that everyone should be following, but I do think it is probably a viable min/max'd PVE+PVP spec for certain people in certain guilds, and it may be worth discussing in that context.

I don't get why people feel like I'm trying to "influence people to all go use this spec" just because I brought it up as a possibility for people to consider whether it was something that worked within the framework of their raid composition. Are we not allowed to discuss anything other than one mandatory cookie cutter spec for all PVE Ret Paladins?

The comment about mana costs is very helpful though, that was something I hadn't considered at all, and could be a big factor actually.

I honestly cannot see Pursuit of Justice as required pve dps talent. Sure it helps a bit in movement fights, but "required"?
Myself im wondering between 2/2 divine guardian and 2/3 imp devo aura or 1/2 DG 3/3 devo aura. On live im constantly in top 3-5 effective heal with JoL, +11% heal will sure help a lot.

You're selling movement increase short. The faster you get on target, that's more time attacking. Melee in Sunwell often took Cat's Swiftness for good reasons. Ulduar is going to have you moving around a good bit too.

Being able to close a gap between yourself and your target in a shorter amount of time equates to more damage done -- particularly in that our ranged options are very limited and that we have no Charge-like ability. It's especially useful in fights where there are multiple targets spread about. (i.e. Illidari Council.) Additionally a -50% Disarm time equates to more damage.

Again, you're welcome to spec how you prefer: but I think you'll find the bulk of Ret players absolutely adore having this talent in their arsenal.

PoJ not only helps your time on bosses that move, in addition to being able to get out of the fire faster, but it also helps when latency is an issue when you need to get out of said fire. Saying it helps a bit in movement fights is sort of an understatement. Helping you do more DPS and stay alive is much better than Imp Devo aura, which is already supplied by the prot paladin or the tree druid.