Right now you don't even need to take damage to refresh the proc. I could keep up the shield 100% of the time and never take damage when testing on a low level mob.
I'm almost certain this is unintentional (the tooltip for the ability states directly "Each time the target takes damage..."), but as we haven't heard any real responses on this part I think we can call it a little bonus.
Last edited by flyingtoastr : 04/08/09 at 3:24 PM.
And with raid wide AoE the way it's been reported in Ulduar, it's looking like a great talent for Retribution. The 12s duration on the proc also goes some way towards making Holy paladins slightly less bitter about the single target change. I guess I never even considered the talented version might work out that way (seemed too good to be true, almost like if the 10% better Div Sac somehow decreased the damage transfered by 10%).
Introducing a rolling mechanism somewhere on the holy tree could be an option if they still think we have issues with AoE situation down the road (I still think it a travesty that the ability scales better for retribution than holy still).
How does Sacred Shield scale better for ret pallies? It's a straight .75 multiplier from spell power with no AP coefficient and holy pallies typically have much more SP than rets. Am I missing something?
I find Improved Might to be a better way to go than Improved Battle Shout. No limitations on range, 30 minute duration, slightly more AP than Battle Shout
When both are talented they are the exact same AP. That being said BoM is better than BS in every other catagory.
How does Sacred Shield scale better for ret pallies? It's a straight .75 multiplier from spell power with no AP coefficient and holy pallies typically have much more SP than rets. Am I missing something?
I think we all are missing something in regards to SS. Granted my own tests were limited and far from scientific, but I found my sacred shield (with DG) to absorb just as much as a holy paladin who didn't have DG. As you are probably aware, the holy paladin had more than twice my spell power. Which leads me to believe there may be a bug (or perhaps a hidden bonus for ret?) in either sacred shield iteself or DG. Or I could just be imagining things.
I'd offer to a more legitimate test tonight but I am otherwise preoccupied in WoW with raids and the arena season drawing to a close.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
How does Sacred Shield scale better for ret pallies? It's a straight .75 multiplier from spell power with no AP coefficient and holy pallies typically have much more SP than rets. Am I missing something?
I can have close to 8-9k AP in raids depending on buffs and procs etc. How much SP do Holy Pallies have in raids? I'm guessing over 1/3rd of 8-9k, but if not, then I'd say SS scales better with Ret. As I said though I'm not 100% sure on what numbers holy Pallies are seeing in raids.
I think i remember ImpBoM is 1 ap greater to prevent a stray battle shout covering it up. I remember at launch not being able to bless class's that already had imp battle shout on even when my BoM was improved and would last 30 minutes. It was frustrating.
I can have close to 8-9k AP in raids depending on buffs and procs etc. How much SP do Holy Pallies have in raids? I'm guessing over 1/3rd of 8-9k, but if not, then I'd say SS scales better with Ret. As I said though I'm not 100% sure on what numbers holy Pallies are seeing in raids.
I know it's anecdotal, but my guild's Holy Pallies run around 2000 Spell Power un-buffed. Being generous in terms of raid buffs, consumables, etc. I would ballpark them around 3000 in a raid setting.
Seems roughly comparable to what Sheath would provide Ret using your AP numbers. So that probably does not account for whatever extra benefits Ret is seeing from SS.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
How does Sacred Shield scale better for ret pallies? It's a straight .75 multiplier from spell power with no AP coefficient and holy pallies typically have much more SP than rets. Am I missing something?
Scales wasn't the appropriate word. Let's say it's quite nearly as strong coming from a retribution paladin, combined with the fact that early protection tree isn't that attractive to holy, making speccing for improved Div Sac more of a tradeoff for holy.
Originally Posted by Alleyra
I know it's anecdotal, but my guild's Holy Pallies run around 2000 Spell Power un-buffed. Being generous in terms of raid buffs, consumables, etc. I would ballpark them around 3000 in a raid setting.
3000 seems a tad bit generous... could you outline how you figure 1000SP bonus from raid bonuses?
280 from Totem of Wrath,
125 from the flask,
1100 base int, 110 int from mark/AI + BoK -> 267
Total = 672
I know it's anecdotal, but my guild's Holy Pallies run around 2000 Spell Power un-buffed. Being generous in terms of raid buffs, consumables, etc. I would ballpark them around 3000 in a raid setting.
Seems roughly comparable to what Sheath would provide Ret using your AP numbers. So that probably does not account for whatever extra benefits Ret is seeing from SS.
That's probably way too generous. Raid buffed is only an additional 500 or so SP at best (before trinket procs or other temporary buffs). I'm looking at totem of wrath (280) or possibly an Imp giving a little bit more than that (say 300) and some minimal benefits from increased int -> sp conversions. 500 is probably too generous as well unless I am forgetting something. Second, ret paladins would gain any direct sp buffs the holy paladin gains as well (minus the int-sp conversion), which actually reduces the % difference. Also, if people are running with 9k AP in a raid, it's entirely likely that they have more SP than holy paladin's do.
The general naysayers: Its 30 minutes long, and more AP than the base spell or any other of its category. How is that not a DPS talent?
It is a required DPS talent for SOMEONE in your raid. However, depending on the exact details of your particular raid composition, that someone may or may not include you. Same with Swift Retribution.
It isn't really correct to call something a "mandatory DPS talent" when many people may find that it contributes no DPS at all, due to their particular raid composition.
That's probably way too generous. Raid buffed is only 500 or so SP at best (before trinket procs or other temporary buffs). Second, ret paladins would gain any buffs the holy paladin gains as well, which actually reduces the % difference. Also, if people are running with 9k AP in a raid, it's entirely likely that they have more SP than holy paladin's do.
Procs notwithstanding, on Live, if I'm fully buffed, flasked, and using stat food: I'm at about 5300 AP. Possibly with the Mirror/DMC:G procs I could see spiking to ~7000 AP. But even using 7000 as the number, that only accounts for 2333 spell power. Another 500 (using your approximation) is 2833. (Are you assuming the use of a Spell Power flask?) But this number is very temporary given proc duration.
9k AP is probably a high estimation as well. Are we speaking of Live or PTR?
EDIT: Arthaal, I wasn't assuming any more buffs, I could not remember specifically what their Spell Power buffs were -- hence the high ball-park number. Improved Divine Spirit and Stat food would add some more Spell Power.
Last edited by Alleyra : 04/08/09 at 4:51 PM.
Reason: Responded to Arthaal. Removed AW from AP increases.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
The +20% to SS of DG isn't to be sneezed at. Here's an estimate, not hardcore best in slot. If you have 6k AP raid buffs before procs then that's 1800 spelldam from sheath + ~200 from totems. 2k * .75 is 1500. 1500 + 500 is a 2k shield. 20% of 2k is 400.
It would take 533 (533 * .75 = 400) spelldamage to equal that extra DG absorbtion. I could easily see the raid buffed DG Ret matching a no DG Holy. This is likely why the Holies want to pick up the talent. Holy may have about 2200 Spellpower + ~200 totem. That's a 2300 strength shield. 20% of their 2300 shield is 460 for a 2760 shield. It would take the Holy 613 spellpower for 460 more to their SS. Divinity, some crap talents, DG for the Holy is pretty hot.
My guild's Holy keeps double-checking to make sure I'll have Imp Might, because he very likely will not. All because he's looking temptingly at Prot rather than a couple % crit from Ret. He's already lamenting PoJ, though.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
It isn't really correct to call something a "mandatory DPS talent" when many people may find that it contributes no DPS at all, due to their particular raid composition.
Lets say the "other" ret pali with swift retribution dies. You lost dps that you could have had if you would not have spent points in pvp talents.
Possibly with Avenging Wrath and the Mirror/DMC:G procs I could see spiking to ~7000 AP
I don't believe avenging wrath is an ap/sp increase.
Divine Guardian makes the SP coefficient of Sacred Shield go from .75 to .9 from the +20% increased amount absorbed. We can write Sacred Shield's formula out with regards to AP instead of SP. (All numbers assume 3/3 Sheath of Light)
Base Sacred Shield
AP*.3*.75+500
.225AP+500 = Amount absorbed
A 22.5% AP coefficient.
Sacred Shield w/ 1/2 DG
AP*.3*.75*1.1+550
.2475AP+550 = Amount absorbed
A 24.75% AP coefficient
Sacred Shield w/ 2/2 DG
AP*.3*.75*1.2+600
.27AP+600 = Amount absorbed
With 2/2 DG, Sacred Shield has a 27% AP coefficient.
I would like to note Totem of Wrath and Flametongue Totem (w/ 3/3 Enhancing Totems) increase the overall amount absorbed by 210-252 and 124-149, respectively, depending on the amount of points you have invested in Divine Guardian. Demonic Pact, I believe, pulls ahead of a talented Flametongue but (probably) won't become better than Totem of Wrath. A couple other small bonuses fall in here too, seasonal candies, Feasts, etc.
To bring this a bit further, assuming Kings and 5/5 Divine Strength;
Procs notwithstanding, on Live, if I'm fully buffed, flasked, and using stat food: I'm at about 5300 AP. Possibly with Avenging Wrath and the Mirror/DMC:G procs I could see spiking to ~7000 AP. But even using 7000 as the number, that only accounts for 2333 spell power. Another 500 (using your approximation) is 2833. (Are you assuming the use of a Spell Power flask?) But this number is very temporary given proc duration.
9k AP is probably a high estimation as well. Are we speaking of Live or PTR?
I only mentioned 9k because someone had mentioned they were close to 8-9k with buffs during a raid. 500 additional SP would include a flask and fish feast buff, so 165(?) of that 500 that would be exclusive to the holy paladin (assuming the ret paladin was using str food instead of a fish feast), but the point was that a ret paladin and holy paladin in a raid setting are going to have similar SP totals. Depending on how each is geared, or how the holy paladin gems, is what will tip the scales.
EDIT: Arthaal, I wasn't assuming any more buffs, I could not remember specifically what their Spell Power buffs were -- hence the high ball-park number. Improved Divine Spirit and Stat food would add some more Spell Power.
Ah ok, I haven't been playing much of late, I thought I was losing track of my buffs... Stat food of course for an extra 46SP (718 total). Improved Divine spirit will no longer stack with Totem of Wrath as of 3.1 however. Still 700 is more than I figured raid buffs would provide.
In any case, I think Div Sac being what it is, most PvE centric builds, be it retribution (who has the points to spare and not many places to spend them + get a big benefit from the improved SS scaling) or holy (who give up a lot, but 40% raid damage soak every 2 minutes is nothing to sneeze at) will probably end up with the points in Prot to reach it.
For holy it will depend on the mana regen equation (8% crit is pretty significant chunk) to some extent, but the Div Sac just looks too attractive from a raid leader POV. Even moreso if you can make it work every 2 minutes without bubbling by using beacon (possibly glyphing GoSalvation) and spamming like mad. The prot build becomes even more attractive once 4p T8 is equipped as well.
As I said 8-9k was a rough guesstimate including procs, but I know I've had over 8k AP before in raids (it shows my AP on my G15 lol)
Ah, I forgot about the Berserking proc! You also have the PvP Libram (I don't!) which would account for some of that as well. You also use Loatheb's Shadow whereas I use the Mirror as my second trinket. I know I have seen my AP hit the 7000's, so that could account for your breaking the 8000 mark.
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
Scales wasn't the appropriate word. Let's say it's quite nearly as strong coming from a retribution paladin, combined with the fact that early protection tree isn't that attractive to holy, making speccing for improved Div Sac more of a tradeoff for holy.
3000 seems a tad bit generous... could you outline how you figure 1000SP bonus from raid bonuses?
280 from Totem of Wrath,
125 from the flask,
1100 base int, 110 int from mark/AI + BoK -> 267
Total = 672
What am I forgetting?
Small nitpick. Even that +672 SP number is high. You're adding SP gained from INT, and including the base INT in that number, when that is already included in their unbuffed SP total. So subtract 1100*.2, 220 SP, from that, and it's really only +452 SP.
They are close enough that I would consider them a wash.
That being said BoM is technically a utility buff that is equal in power to BS. The cards just happen to fall in such a way that BoM works out being a lot better due to other reasons.
30 minutes compared to 2 (3 min talented)
If the warrior goes down the buff will most likely fall off before the boss dies
We spend 2 talents to get the 25% bonus while Warriors have to spend 5
Ret builds have more "left-over" talents than Warrior dps builds so they can point those extra 5 points to better use
Now if BS was a 30 minute buff, Imp Might was a 5 point talent, and our builds didn't have a lot of extra points lying I'm betting everyone would be reacting completely different. Ret Paladins would be working on deals with the dps warriors in their guild so they could spend those points into dps talents and let the Warriors use BS. Based on that fact I'm going to have to say that Blessing of Might = Raid Utility and not a dps talent. BoM having better mechanics than BS doesn't make it a dps talent.
The argument regarding classification of the ability is rather pointless. Take it if your group needs it or you want it, don't if you find yourself not needing it. You'd have 2 free points to put into a PvP talent or somewhere else, but arguing over deciding whether to call this utility or DPS is ridiculous
Basically, you make sure a raid has every buff and debuff using a tool like this: MMO-Champion RaidComp
Generally, it's also nice to have a backup, but beyond that the talent points are in no way affecting your dps.
Back to SS:
After seeing various posts about the reduction, I honestly think something is either wrong (i.e it double dips somewhere, or it's bugged) or that it'll get a nerf soon. There's no way they're going to let us enter Arena with a shield as powerful as Power Word: Shield (reduces less damage, but is up more often - PW:S has a 15 sec debuff).
After seeing various posts about the reduction, I honestly think something is either wrong (i.e it double dips somewhere, or it's bugged) or that it'll get a nerf soon. There's no way they're going to let us enter Arena with a shield as powerful as Power Word: Shield (reduces less damage, but is up more often - PW:S has a 15 sec debuff).
In Arena, you will not have Fish Food and tons of AP + Spell power buffs. Arena shields will only be 2k or so, and remember you will be using Blood in Arena.
Ret representation will likely increase, but maybe 1% or so.
I don't think SS will be nerfed for Ret, be happy we got something really powerful.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
04/08/09, 3:11 PM
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