Hey guys. Long time reader, first time poster.

I was looking at the WWS report of a Naxx10 clear the other day and I realised something.

My miss% on judgement of blood is 0% and I'm only sitting at 177 hitrating. Can this be right? (You will see 0,7% miss on the WWS, but that is due to immunity/absorb etc).

My miss% on physical attacks is 2-3% average.

Link to WWS: Wow Web Stats

Judgement misses aren't counted as JotM/JoB misses they are counted as Light/Wisdom misses, so they won't show up on the dmg part of WWS.

I also happen to think it's a move to help us out a bit in light of the fact that we're losing some of the burst we relied on for success currently (JoB - as small as our success so far has been). Yes we're getting Exo, but that's on a significantly longer cooldown and doesn't hit quite as hard.

That makes sense, thanks. How about the low miss% on consecration? It should be higher ?

Only the first tick of consecration getting resisted is recorded in the combat log. To get the miss rate, divide the number landed by the number of potential ticks. To get potential ticks, multiply the number of casts by 8 (or 10 if glyphed).

My spreadsheet calculates my average SP to be 2247 over the course of the fight with procs being averaged out. I am quite sure that equally geared holy paladins get well above that mark. I suspect ret paladins are only about 10% worse in terms of SS power, but holy definitely has the edge.

With buffs worked out above, I think a Holy pally could probably average out at 2500-2600 or so, assuming they're gemming as per the guidelines in the EJ thread... that is, no one's stacking SP trinkets or gemming for it in any direct way really. That's at 2000-2100 base SP with 498SP worth of raidbuffs (via int buffs and direct SP buffs).

The thing about that number is that a ret paladin would be getting those same SP buffs, minus the int effects, but plus the AP effect and ShoL conversion.

That's:

Improved BoM: 229SP (550 * 1.25 = 688AP -> 688/3 = 229SP)
Horn of Winter: 131SP (155str * 1.1 BoK * 1.15 DivStr * 2 = 392AP -> 392/3 = 131SP)
Improved Mark of the Wild: 44SP (52str * 1.1 BoK * 1.15 DivStr * 2 = 132AP -> 132/3 = 44SP)
Str Food: 34SP (40str * 1.1 BoK * 1.15 DivStr * 2 = 101AP -> 101/3 = 34SP)
Flask of Endless Rage: 60SP (180AP -> 180/3 = 60SP)

EDIT: forgot about trueshot aura/abom's might... which is worth a variable amount. Currently about 500-550AP or 166-180SP.

So from my earlier post:
Holy -> 498SP from raid buffs
Ret -> 498SP(from AP buffs) + 3.33% of AP from trueshot aura/abom's might + 280 from Totem of Wrath

Meaning, at whatever gear level we're discussing, if ret is less than 280SP (+ 3.33% of AP) behind Holy before buffs, they'd fall behind on pure SP as well once raid buffed. That's not likely to happen currently, but AP scales far faster than SP does.

Also, with today's new PTR push and only minor bug fixes, a few small professions changes... I guess we can't expect that extra effect on CS for 3.1 anymore? Has there been any word since they pulled the spellbreaker effect?

My rough math shows this change...

* Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket now deals 1440 to 1760 Fire damage (Up from 1035 to 1265), cooldown lowered from 1 min to 45 sec.

Along with the removal the GCD it incurred of it makes this the BiS enchant for gloves by a decent margin. RAWR models Hyperspeed Accelerators (in current BiS gear) as #1 w/ a DPS value of 43 DPS, 44.5~ DPS in Hit/Exp capped Naxx gear.

The rocket only benefits from +Fire% and +All% modifiers, meaning only Crusade, Sanctified Retribution, and Avenging Wrath effect it (Glyph of Sense Undead where applicable) and the +5% Spell Crit and +13% Spell Damage debuffs effect it as well. Just factoring in the % modifiers, it's DPS looks like...

{[(1440+1760)/2]*1.03*1.03*1.13}/45 = 42.62 DPS. Multiplied by your expected Spell Hit of 94%*42.62 = 40.06 DPS. To equal the Hyperspeed Accelerators, you'd need to achieve an effective crit% of roughly 13%.

In a fully (de)buffed 25man raid scenario, a geared Ret Paladin should have a 45%~ Spell Crit chance.

I put both of the engineering things into Rawr. Pyro Rockets do 56.35 dps, Hyperspeed Accelerators do 47.69 dps, and Crusher (best normal enchant) does 28.55, which results in Engineering giving you 30 dps. For comparison in the same gear you get around 54 dps from extra stats on Dragon Eyes (not counting extra socket bonus/free meta activation), and 60 dps from Blacksmithing. So Blacksmithing/Jewelcrafting is still the way to go.

I'm not trying to make a case for Engineering, but they also get +crit on their cloak now as well. I think it's 12, iirc but I may be wrong.

Those were roughly the numbers I came to too. I'm not trying to debate the fact that BS/JC is the best, I just thought I'd update those who're stubborn about dropping Engineering (aka me).

Flexweave Underlay is getting +18 Agility on top of the parachute. It's still subpar for pure DPS.

32 AP will be the superior choice to Nitro Boosts, unless some encounter absolutely requires us to Nitro Boots. And if there is one, it'll be changed so it doesn't.

I remember GC saying they probably wouldn't have an additional effect for Crusader Strike ready for 3.1 when they pulled the spellbreaker idea. I personally think they are going for something too dynamic and something as simple as "does x more damage on judged targets" would suffice, but it at least procs Righteous Vengeance now, which is more than it did before.

True. I guess I'm just a bit paranoid when it comes to Ret and nerfing. The community tends to cry out whenever we get any buffs at all (despite getting nerfs at the same time, i.e lower judgement damage), so excorsism + SS will definetly cause some whining, especially in the mid-to-low ratings.

Indeed, AP:SP ratio is somewhere around 2:1 raid buffed right now. However, even if it continues to scale 2:1, we'll still be a bit behind Holy Paladins. For every 500 SP they gain, we'll gain 1000 AP -> 333 SP. The raid buffs remain fairly consistent.

I don't think we'll ever actually catch up, but we are fairly close, so we might have to start using SS on tanks and so on instead of just ourselves. It's quite a powerful damage reduction.

Don't forget that SS can be purged/dispelled. That alone is probably enough arena balance for Blizzard. I wouldn't really worry.

I don't expect any further buffs/nerfs on PTR, beyond (I hope) fixing Armor Penetration. ArmPen is still at 81% expected effectiveness - as someone mathed it in the Combat Ratings thread, it's 1.0125% better than live rather than 125%. What we currently see is most likely what we get on live and that's not a bad thing.

A question I have is after everything is said and done in this patch are we ahead or behind on DPS in comparison to live?

I would test myself against a training dummy, however I can't get my char copies to the PTR. I would primarily be concerned with a CS/Judge/DS/auto attack cycle on both PTR/Live (using exorcism on ptr on a boss dummy would only skew the results as you cant use it on a live dummy).

Has any test like this been run?

Icewalker is the superior enchant, assuming the 12 hit helps you reach the melee hit cap.

Regarding the changed Glove enchant for engineering, maybe Veng affects the Fire damage. Back at 70, Veng affected the non-Aldor SSO neck (it proced Arcane damage).

The numbers I gave were assuming that it acted like a normal spell and was effected by all relevant percentage modifiers.

For the most part we do already use exorcism on everything. It would skew the results as I can't use exorcism on a training dummy on live. Unfortunately I don't exactly have to option to go up to an actual undead raid boss alone on live and attack it while it stands there. I'm interested in seeing if CS+judge+seal+DS+auto attack on the PTR adds up to live numbers or not. The exorcism buff/glyph adds ~1% more DPS.

I didn't foget consecration. Consecration hasn't been adjusted up or down at all. In the same gear/same buffs they will be identical on the PTR to live so I didn't feel that necessary in a comparison of what has changed.

I agree DPS comparison is primarily relevant between classes as a percentage, not wether you go up or down. Still, I'd like to see if what I am interested in. I'll look for the WWS reports you mentioned, thanks for that.

Hey guys i am in the same position as the poster above, just wondering if we have some sort of consensus on how much our dps has gone up, if at all.
I have done the dummie testing over and over swapping from live to ptr and it seems like a 4 to 5% increase but with all the rng involved its pretty flakey.
I looked through the entire thread and couldnt really find many numbers at all. Saw a mention of 8% but that was pure theory crafting i think.
Anyone raiding on the ptr have any thoughts on how much of a dps boost were looking at?
It seems we should scale alot better (with raid buffs ) now with seal damage being almost 2x as good and haste being much better. It now is 30% stronger and is alot more important because it makes our uber seals proc more.
Anyway i cant really find any numbers but i trust alot of the Pallies in here what are your thoughts on our dps?

Ohh and using excorcism on ptr and not on live isnt how you should test, Gc has mentioned many times that we are being balanced on the ptr with the damage we do against undead mobs. So any test from live versus ptr is very difficult.

Without trying to spit numbers or putting up actual comparisons, I am confident that our DPS has at least remained the same, though likely got a slight (1-2%) buff overall. Sure, we lost 3% on crusade, and some value in fanat/RV. But we gained seals that are almost twice as powerful, 15% cs/exorcism damage, 10% DS damage, all while taking a nerf to judgement that was only about a 30% hit. Might you experience a DPS loss at the start of 3.1 with your current gear? Yes, but not because the class got worse, but our stat weightings changed. Try your best to get hit/expertise capped for 3.1, and you should be set.

Lets not also forget there were buffs to haste, which makes the seal change even better. And most of the classes that were doing way too much damage for hybrids are being nerfed. I expect us to be equally competitive to other melee hybids in DPS, while still doing extremely well on the healing front and being one of the most utility-heavy hybrids. Our previous risk for being likely to die due to recoil has been at least partially mitigated by fixes to SS and talent changes.

If you're worried about your raid spot, you shouldn't be. I'd go as far to say that a ret paladin is required for every fight. As long as you only have 1 ret paladin in the raid, your spot should be certain, or your raid leader needs a CAT scan.

Sounds good, i am done trying to use the dummies as accurate dps tests. I just did 1 million damage back and forth between live and ptr and i was down 5% on ptr with a basic cs,ds and judge rotation i did it 5 times each on live and ptr for a total of 10 million damage it was always the same, 3000 dps live 2850 ptr. Consecrate is the same and i was trying to compare apples to apples seeing as how were suppose to be balanced on undead mob dps.
But i guess its too hard to come to any conclusions yet without any raid buffs.