Sounds good, i am done trying to use the dummies as accurate dps tests. I just did 1 million damage back and forth between live and ptr and i was down 5% on ptr with a basic cs,ds and judge rotation i did it 5 times each on live and ptr for a total of 10 million damage it was always the same, 3000 dps live 2850 ptr. Consecrate is the same and i was trying to compare apples to apples seeing as how were suppose to be balanced on undead mob dps.
But i guess its too hard to come to any conclusions yet without any raid buffs.
The dummies are never an accurate DPS test. NEVER. Dummies are good for testing procs or mechanics and practicing rotations... that's it. Don't ever treat them as a DPS test, you won't have all the scaling and raid buffs that are what blizzard actually balances us on for PVE.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Sounds good, i am done trying to use the dummies as accurate dps tests. I just did 1 million damage back and forth between live and ptr and i was down 5% on ptr with a basic cs,ds and judge rotation i did it 5 times each on live and ptr for a total of 10 million damage it was always the same, 3000 dps live 2850 ptr. Consecrate is the same and i was trying to compare apples to apples seeing as how were suppose to be balanced on undead mob dps.
But i guess its too hard to come to any conclusions yet without any raid buffs.
One thing to consider is we scale better with haste now, since seals are a larger portion of our damage from blood. So windfury/bloodlust are going to increase our DPS more.
Your results are what I was looking for though, thanks! Sucks I can't get my char on the PTR. After raid buffs it looks like CS+DS+auto+judge+seal+RV adds up to similar numbers as live.
So, last night I did Naxx25 as Ret instead of my usual Prot role - I got good gear but it's far from being all BiS items.
Since we were doing an Immortal run (which we got, by the way, yay), I didn't wanna risk killing myself on Thaddius, so I used Seal of Command instead of Martyr. To my surprise, I came out third on dps with 9400~ dps. Since Ret is not my main spec, I forgot to re-glyph, so I didn't even have the Consecration glyph or the Seal of Command one.
Everyone says Seal of Command sucks but apparently it's not THAT bad, right? If I had both glyphs and a feral druid, I would be doing close 11k dps, which is what most pallies do with Seal of Martyr - at least according to WMO
Did I get lucky with SoC procs on that fight? Is SoC supposed to be somewhat close to SoM/SoB dps? Why does everyone say it sucks bad then?
Thaddius is one of the fights where Martyr is iffy due to AoE damage, as you can judge yourself to death if you time it poorly or raid healing isn't as spot on as it should be. Still, SoM is typically the superior seal. Its been argued to death way earlier in the thread on several occasions, so you can probably find the answer to your question there.
Two things to keep in mind; Thaddius' polarity charges increases your damage by 10%, and stacks based on the number of like charges within range of you. Some classes (fury warriors, ret paladins, etc) scale better with percent modifiers than others, so you can give a good portion of the credit the nature of the fight and class mechanics more than anything else. That's not to say it isn't impressive, but its no great mystery either.
The other thing relates back to the nature of the fight; Thaddius is a unique fight that is skewed towards some DPS specs and classes and not others. Compare your dps / dmg done on Patchwerk instead, which is nothing more than a tank and spank from a DPS point of view.
Inner Rage: the Warrior becomes Enraged after realizing she is too Angry.
I know the mechanics of the fight. I'm not comparing my 9k dps with people's 6k dps on patchwerk. I'm comparing it with other paladins, on the SAME fight, with SoM/SoB instead of SoC.
I'm not questioning that SoM/SoB are superior to SoC either, I'm just saying that my report showed that SoC is NOT that far behind.
Thaddius is a pretty random fight. How many times you have to move, how many people you have on your side during lust+wings, and of course the rng associated with your crit (which is magnified by the huge damage multipliers). This means that your dps can vary by up 2-3k from week to week. Using one boss fight (and Thaddius of all encouters) and trying to make an argument that SoComm isn't that much behind SoB is like swinging at a target dummy twice, critting both times, and saying your crit rate must be 100%. There just isn't enough data to make any sort of real assessment.
Gc has mentioned many times that we are being balanced on the ptr with the damage we do against undead mobs.
Source, please. Being balanced assuming we can also use HW, get 3% more damage from Crusade on everything, and have 1% from Sense Undead glyph is not balanced. Ulduar is not full of undead and demons. Balancing our DPS on the assumption we're fighting undead and demons will consistently leave us under every other DPSer.
As we are not below every other DPS class and appear as competitive as anyone else, then I cannot believe this claim.
Rather the reverse, the intention as I understand is to balance based around non-undead and make the swing when we do fight them not as severe. Making Exo usable everywhere is a significant chop into undead/demon-only damage. We seem adequately balanced in this regard.
I still argue for a direct comparison you would not use Exo on live and would on PTR. This would simulate a non-Naxxramas boss, such as Malygos or Sarth... or Ulduar. It is all the abilities you can use on any mob vs. all the abilities you can use on any mob - apples and apples. Not using it on either or using it on both is apples and oranges.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
You can easily artificially inflate your DPS numbers on Thaddius by not attacking whenever you lose the damage buff (the average damge of each attack will be higher if every one of them is under the effects of a buff). Percentages of total damage are also wonky on that fight because of the way RV double dips on the damage buff, increasing its damage to a much larger proportion of what it normally is.
I know the mechanics of the fight. I'm not comparing my 9k dps with people's 6k dps on patchwerk. I'm comparing it with other paladins, on the SAME fight, with SoM/SoB instead of SoC.
I'm not questioning that SoM/SoB are superior to SoC either, I'm just saying that my report showed that SoC is NOT that far behind.
When I said "use patchwerk" I meant "use patchwerk as a better method of rating your DPS with SoC compared to other ret paladins using SoM". One problem (among many) with your comparison is that you'd either have to reciprocate the fight after glyphing properly or find a ret paladin using Martyr who for whatever reason is glyphed improperly like yourself. And when everything is said and done, its pointless to measure the disparity between SoM and SoC when its been argued to death and back way earlier in this thread.
Inner Rage: the Warrior becomes Enraged after realizing she is too Angry.
You misunderstood GC and me Exemplar. The dps they want us to do in Ulduar is suppose to be the dps we are doing on undead mobs in Naxx.
It was stated quite a few times by Gc himself.
Here is one of the posts from Gc , there were quite a few.
Paladins being better against undead and demons than other types of creatures is a problem, especially when the current content has a lot of undead and the next tier will most likely have far less.
Assume for the sake of argument that the damage you do in Naxx (at 3 Vengeance stacks) is the damage we want you to do all the time. You don't need to invoke "but if we are good in Naxx we will be just okay in Ulduar." That is a design problem you don't need to worry about.
That was the entire reason for the excorcism change. So you cant use excorcism on ptr and compare dps to live, it doesnt work.
They are balancing us using 25 man naxx damage on undead mobs for Ulduar.
Has anyone's guild done a patchwerk dps test since blood/martyr were fixed? I'd like to see some raid buffed numbers but since testing stopped as we were finally fixed there seems to be none. If anyone has enough friends or alts on the PTR to get us all the raid buffs i'd be glad to come help out if we want to organize that.
Also, i know most people are saying our dps changes have been a wash and we are about where we are on live (based on theory crafting). So as far as the TC goes, are we doing the same damage as we are on live with crusader and sense undead in naxx? or is it 4% below our naxx numbers?
You misunderstood GC and me. The dps they want us to do in Ulduar is suppose to be the dps we are doing on undead mobs in Naxx.
We ARE doing more or equal damage on PTR as we are doing in Naxx at the moment. If you can't understand that, then YOU are the one misunderstanding, not us.
Originally Posted by Naudie
Has anyone's guild done a patchwerk dps test since blood/martyr were fixed? I'd like to see some raid buffed numbers but since testing stopped as we were finally fixed there seems to be none. If anyone has enough friends or alts on the PTR to get us all the raid buffs i'd be glad to come help out if we want to organize that.
Also, i know most people are saying our dps changes have been a wash and we are about where we are on live (based on theory crafting). So as far as the TC goes, are we doing the same damage as we are on live with crusader and sense undead in naxx? or is it 4% below our naxx numbers?
I have not, but I want to bring up a point here. A patchwerk-style fight is not a ret paladin's strongpoint. Classes that require significant setup and have powerful, short cooldowns will always look better on this type of a fight. Most fights in ulduar require a lot of movement and target switching; something ret paladins are quite good at. Asking for a patchwerk reading on PTR is irrelvant, IMO. For parses of actual ulduar bosses, we are doing better than most other hybrids quite consistantly... BEFORE the buff to seals/nerf to judgement. After, I suspect this to be even moreso the case.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I have not, but I want to bring up a point here. A patchwerk-style fight is not a ret paladin's strongpoint. Classes that require significant setup and have powerful, short cooldowns will always look better on this type of a fight. Most fights in ulduar require a lot of movement and target switching; something ret paladins are quite good at. Asking for a patchwerk reading on PTR is irrelvant, IMO. For parses of actual ulduar bosses, we are doing better than most other hybrids quite consistantly... BEFORE the buff to seals/nerf to judgement. After, I suspect this to be even moreso the case.
I completely agree that patch is a bad fight for us, and target switching is good, i was just looking for an apples to apples comparison, optimal or not. There are obviously no ulduar bosses on live to compare dps on a fight to fight basis, and patch, while not necessarily a good dps indicator, has very few random elements, minus RNG on our own abilities and time, that would skew result from one parse to the next.
I completely agree that patch is a bad fight for us, and target switching is good, i was just looking for an apples to apples comparison, optimal or not. There are obviously no ulduar bosses on live to compare dps on a fight to fight basis, and patch, while not necessarily a good dps indicator, has very few random elements, minus RNG on our own abilities and time, that would skew result from one parse to the next.
Ah well, it's not going to be apples to apples regardless. Live patchwerk is 2-2.5 min, PTR one is usually 5+ minutes. Different cooldown lineup, I suppose it could be useful just to compare individual ability damage.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Im confused as heck right now?
I wasnt agreeing or disagreeing with you Zurm lol, just showing the other person where the quote came from and what the development team were shooting for dps wise, wasnt saying it was low,high or otherwise on ptr.
Im really confused by your post.
That quote i gave was in reply to Exemplar who asked for a source for my statement, he questioned it when i said comparing ptr with exorcism is not comparable to live without it. That was it dont kill me, he requested it.
Are there any Engineers that have tested the Wrist Rocket on the PTR? On live it resets your swing timer, so that makes it not as good as the haste engineering enchant I presume.
Also it shares a special engineering 10 second GCD with the lighting trinket in 3.1.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Not having had a chance to do any of the boss testing on PTR, how are we doing for mana with the loss of SA? Just wondering whether the new glyph of SotM/SoB (which, as I understand it, will have the same effect as it currently does, only without the need for SA) will become more desirable?
I understand that at the least it will become a more useful glyph for soloing, but not sure about raid worthiness.
@rea123 - Go reread the last about 8 pages worth of posts and you will find the various answers concerning our mana situation in 3.1 and any other 3.1 related questions.
I'll quickly reiterate what they have said though, our mana situation atm in Ulduar is FINE with the new JotW and for now mana issues do not seem to start until the mob is below 20% health. At which point it takes us ~100 seconds to go oom. Thus the glyphs of choice will be Judgement, Exorcism and Consecration
Are there any Engineers that have tested the Wrist Rocket on the PTR? On live it resets your swing timer, so that makes it not as good as the haste engineering enchant I presume.
Also it shares a special engineering 10 second GCD with the lighting trinket in 3.1.
Hand Mounted Pyro-Rockets do not reset the swing timer on the PTR.
The HMPR sharing a short, 10 second cooldown with the GLG has no PvE implications, at least any that I can think of.
Originally Posted by rea123
I understand that at the least it will become a more useful glyph for soloing, but not sure about raid worthiness.
Mana whilst questing has actually been buffed from Live. Glyph of Seal of Blood really seems quite unnecessary with the current iteration of Retribution (on the PTR) and I, for one, am glad. Glyphs fixing baseline problems is a big NO-NO.
Skinning gives +32 crit rating, not +24 at level 450
Bracer enchant from leatherworking gives +114 attack power, not +74
Check Jogmos out in the armoury for bracer enchant
You're right that Bracer enchant for leatherworking gives +114 attack power. But you have to substract the 50 AP enchant available to everybody. So leatherworking effectively gives you 64 AP as a profession.
So the first post should be corrected with 64 AP instead of 74 AP for leatherworking.
It appears the LW comparison in the OP is being compared to the inferior enchant. (114-76=38). The post was probably made early enough that not too many people had the 50ap enchant at the time, and was just never changed.
@rea123 - Go reread the last about 8 pages worth of posts and you will find the various answers concerning our mana situation in 3.1 and any other 3.1 related questions.
I'll quickly reiterate what they have said though, our mana situation atm in Ulduar is FINE with the new JotW and for now mana issues do not seem to start until the mob is below 20% health. At which point it takes us ~100 seconds to go oom. Thus the glyphs of choice will be Judgement, Exorcism and Consecration
Because SoB and JoB scale with stats, and obviously consecration costs the same no matter what, has anyone worked out the DPS needed for the SoB glyph to return more mana than the cons glyph saves. And also will the change in the CD of cons helping with the rotation cancel out the benefits of better mana efficiency with the SoB glyph?
Because SoB and JoB scale with stats, and obviously consecration costs the same no matter what, has anyone worked out the DPS needed for the SoB glyph to return more mana than the cons glyph saves. And also will the change in the CD of cons helping with the rotation cancel out the benefits of better mana efficiency with the SoB glyph?
Glyph of Cons may or may not provide better mana efficiency... I haven't even done simple math on that. But I can say that you don't need the SOB glyph, and as such getting it over the consec glyph will just result in a DPS loss because of more GCD collisions.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I've tested the SoB Glyph on the PTR a bit. It does increase mana efficiency. Without I was usually OOM or in dire straights after about 7 min (no JoWisdom). With the glyph I could go 10+ min and longer, but the tradeoff is in ability cooldown clashes. The limited (very limited) tests I did showed a personal dps loss because of the changed CD. I've got the 4pT7 for the reduced judgement cooldown. If I ever break that up, I think it would only make things worse. EDIT: Zurm beat me to the punch!!
On a side note, I dl'd the new beta version of RAWR with known Ulduar items. I was more than a little disappointed to see that every piece of T8 ranked lower than my current T7. Anyone else not impressed with the tier set as a whole?
04/09/09, 1:46 PM
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