Kinmaul

@aylen86

What exactly is the point of a 3.1 BiS list using current content? When 3.1 comes out we all going to be in Ulduar where practically everything that drops is going to be an upgrade to the items on your list. Either you have that gear sitting in the bank or you are out of luck because the chances of picking up any pieces of gear that are 3.1 BiS at this point is basically nil. I can't see any progession guilds going back into Naxx once 3.1 hits.

Obviously you took some time making your post and I'm not trying to be a jackass. I just think worrying about a "pre-Ulduar 3.1 BiS list" is a moot point given how close the patch is.

 

Odinage

Heroism/Bloodlust should be called as soon as threat allows it with all cooldowns popped. It's only when there's a burn phase in the fight that it should be saved (along with cooldowns).

Heroism / Bloodlust Theory

 

Fisker

Unless something in the encounter requires it(Like Maexnna at 30% and Sartharion with Drakes) we use Bloodlust in the beginning of each fight, of course we let the tank get it, but after 10-20 seconds we pop Bloodlust, i always wait for Bloodlust to cast AW.

Maybe it would be better to cast Bloodlust around 45 seconds into the fight, by then all relevant debuffs should be up, and our procs are usually once per minute, so waiting could give us bloodlust + procs more efficiently, in any case i think it's smarter to use Bloodlust as quickly as possible

Edit: I were too late :/

 

HamSlammer

A couple things.

This thread is about providing min/max information. Being as prepared as we can be before we enter Ulduar is tantamount to the success of any serious raiding Retribution Paladin (IE those using this thread) looking to push into Ulduar strongly, both normal, heroic, and their corresponding hard modes.

Secondly, just because an upgrade exists doesn't mean it will drop and just because it drops does not mean it's automatically yours. We have to compete for DPS gear between plate classes and 2 leather classes and tier tokens with two other classes. Guilds will still be doing Malygos10 and Sartharion2D+ because they take 30~ minutes total and will still provide good gear.

Lastly, quite a few pieces have staying power, namely the ilvl 226 items. Any KT, Malygos, or Sarth2D+ drop will likely be replaced last, if at all. And some, Greatness specifically, won't get upgraded by known Ulduar gear. I have no doubt that I'll still be sporting a handful of pieces two months from now, simply because of RNG loot or crappy rolls on my behalf.

So, with all that, I think a preUlduar BiS list is very relevant to anyone who the aforementioned applies to (aka everyone raiding Ulduar). And most of us who kept up with the PTR changes and this thread took the initiative of obtaining the pieces we needed to fit our changing needs.

 

HamSlammer

Two EJ members did great work over in the Benefactor's Bar about this quite a bit ago. They found that there's generally two places to slap your Bloodlust, depending on the fight. If it's a fight that requires you to burn at a specific point (Phase 2 Kael, for an example), that's when you Lust.

If it's just a tank n' spank, you blow it at the start. The only exception to this is if you only can get one round of CDs in (generally, < 120 seconds), then you save CDs and drop it at the tail end.

 

Moony

I see a lot of people puting up calculations of ulduar BIS gear (known ofc) for ret paladin and coming up to theoretical numbers around 5800+ dps.

A lot has been spoken on the damage we gained/lost between 3.0 and 3.1, ranging from lack of undead mobs, to the nerf of righteous vengeance, to the buffing os exorcism, etc,etc,etc.


I have a lot of interest for another class (warlock) and going on their simulations, i see theoretical dps ranging from 6500 dps (worse spec) to 6900 dps (best theoretical spec), and those simulations are being done with... tier7.5 gear.

I can't help but feel a little unease with 3 situations:

a) Lack of theoretical dps - Every single parse from 3.1 i've seen so far shows ret paladins below all hybrids.
b) 20% of our dps rotation is aoe based - might be a problem in CC / control situations (that are non-existing so far but heard in 3.1 have a comeback)
c) Armor penetration is the new "FOTM" wich does less for us than other melee classes


Please dont consider this a general QQ. I love my ret pala and i'm genuinely concerned about the "fun" part of the game for me in ulduar (b) and ofc, the general performance (a).


For all the theorycrafting people out there, do we have a chance to compete or ... not?

 

Kinmaul

The shift in damage from Judgement onto Seals was one of the last changes to hit the PTR and it is the major reason our itemization has changed so drastically. I've been keeping up with the PTR patch-by-patch and unless you had an inside source inside of Blizzard I don't see how most people could have most (if any) of that gear outside of the stuff that was already BiS under the old weights. Thowing up a BiS like this when guilds have at most one more raid week before Ulduar seems pointless. If the patch rolls out on this Tuesday then most of his list is going to be impossible to obtain due to guilds dropping Naxx. The Maly and 2d Sarth gear is slightly more reasonable due to how quick they are, but I still can't see progression guilds giving either of these two encounters any sort of priority in 3.1.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there isn't any point to be freaking over not being optimized when first stepping into Ulduar. Our stat weights have changed dramatically and most people are not going to have the luxury of having a bank full of back-up hit/expertise gear lying around to make the switch. If you were in mostly BiS gear before 3.1 you are going to do fine in Ulduar and pick up gear that is better suited to the job in a new instance that is going to be fun and challenging (hopefully). Fretting over Naxx/Maly/Sarth gear at this point is just plain silly.

 

flyingtoastr

Just as you admitted, people are going to have at least one, maybe two, cycles before 3.1 drops to continue running Naxx. That gives you a couple chances to pick up these pieces before running off to Ulduar. There is absolutely no reason not to grab any of these pieces that may drop while finishing up farming.

There is a very good reason to be worried about being optimized. This is a forum for high level cutting-edge raiding. Yes, you can get by wearing sub-par gear, but the entire point of this thread's existence is to determine what the optimal way to play a retribution paladin is. On top of that, it seems a lot of people are assuming Ulduar is just another Naxx where you can waltz in in greens and clear the instance. It isn't. Ulduar is actually fairly difficult (not Sunwell level by any means, but harder than I remember Hyjal being back in the day at the least), anything you can do to make it easier (by increasing your DPS) is a good thing.

No one is fretting or freaking out. We're just getting ready to push as hard as we can as quickly as we can.

 

• Zurm

For your first point, how many parses have you seen after the seal change was fixed? I'm guessing next to none, since there were no raid bosses up (other than the new vault boss in WG) since they've corrected seals. In addition, the parses you DID see us lower on was probably the PTR patchwerk boss, which is NOTHING LIKE ANY OF THE BOSSES IN ULDUAR. I do believe blizzard when they say they will correct any large discreptancy when it comes to DPS, and you really shouldn't worry about it. Plus, your raid spot isn't even in that much trouble even if we just barely beat the tanks; an extra set of blessings, JoL, replenishment, 3% damage, 3% crit... all things that are extremely important to a progression raid.

For your second point its a non-issue. All divine storm does is help your DPS on fights where that's an option, there isn't as much CC as Blizz advertised there might be before 3.1 hit the PTR.

For your final point, I'm not sure what you mean. ArP isn't any more prevalent than it was in 3.0 (also keep in mind we haven't seen many, many items yet), and you can get haste (which is quite good now) instead on pretty much any slot.

 

Baklava09

For those of you like me, who don't have access to the best in slot leather (never picked it up) and don't plan on getting it a week before ulduar I made a list still using 4 piece bonus to the highest potential DPS I could find.

Obsidian Greathelm - Bold Dragon's Eye, Chaotic Skyfire Diamond, Arcanum of Torrent
Favor of the Dragon Queen - Bold Dragon's Eye
Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates - Bold Dragon's Eye, Greater Inscription of the Axe
Drape of the Deadly Foe - Major Agility
Valorous Redemption Chestpiece - 2x Bold Scarlet Ruby, Powerful Stats
Bracers of Unrelenting Attack - Bold Scarlet Ruby, Greater Assault
Valorous Redemption Gauntlets - Bold Scarlet Ruby, Crusher
Girdle of Chivalry - 2x Bold Scarlet Ruby
Valorous Redemption Legplates - Bold Scarlet Ruby, Etched Monarch Topaz, Icescale Leg Armor
Iron-Spring Jumpers - Icewalker
Surge-Needle Ring - Assault
Ruthlessness - Assault
Fury of the Five Flights
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Betrayer of Humanity - Beserking

6,956 AP
42.11% Crit Chance
0.07% Miss Chance (7.93% hit / 260 rating)
3.72% Dodge Chance (11 Expertise / 91 rating)
39.67% Melee Haste (328 haste rating)
______________________________________________________

Using this combination as a JC/Enchanter, not utilizing the crusade talent by selecting Other as mob type, I came up with 5803 dps. The only other change I made to buffs was add improved windfury totem and de-selecting heroic presence since I am horde.

As Alliance I selected Heroic Presence and replaced Iron-Spring Jumpers with Dawnwalkers, and changed out the 8str8hit gem in leggings for 16 str gem and received 5858 dps as a result.

_____________________________________________________

On a side note, Mark of Norgannon shows as a 40 dps loss over FotFF but stilll is 3rd best trinket to use. I've been kind of unlucky with Sarth, even though I've been killing him since the beginning of December.

Also while goofing around with the FCFS Simulator I ended up getting a higher dps using Divine Storm > Judgement > Crusader Strike > Hammer of Wrath > Consecration > Exorcism. I could only simulate this using 4 piece bonus. Using this rotation only granted 2 more dps, but I thought it was kind of neat.

Rotation Info showed as - Crusader Strike 7.58, Judgement 7.58, Consecration 10.72, Exorcism 15.16, Divine Storm 10.1, Hammer of Wrath 7.8

 

Sideshow

so apparently my question got lost in translation.. I'm not asking when is the best time to pop heroism, that is out of my control anyway. My question is which of the following two cases is better:

Fight A:
Two avenging wraths, 1 heroism - none of them stacking

Fight B:
One avenging wrath, stacking perfectly with heroism


Edit: And has this/will it change with 3.1 and the increase on haste (heroism/BL) itemization value?

 

Exemplar

Haste change only affects Haste Rating - not haste from Heroism/Bloodlust. So the benefits of H/BL is still 30% before and after.

Simple math. Haste increases white and seal procs by 30%.
Total white+seal under BL = 130%, total specials = 100%
100% specials + 130% white+seal will always be < 200% specials + 200% white+seal

2 AW always wins. You get 200% the white+seal procs under 2 AW, you get 130% under 1 w/BL.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

aylen86

Using your gearset as an Enchanter/Blacksmith, I came up with 5702 DPS (Horde) and 5755 DPS (Alliance). In addition, Rawr shows that Redemption Battlegear 4 piece bonus is only worth 37.39 DPS. It's no mistake to wear 4/5 t7, but breaking this setup down to 2 piece t7 is better, when you already own some of the BiS offset pieces.

 

Antonetz

Ok, I am getting some conflicting information on this and would appreciate some clarification.
I understand 2 issues have come up / been discovered that causes Ret to look at hit in a different light.

• 2 roll System (Essentially miss cuts into critical strike chance)
• Re weighting of judgment in regards to total dps. (3.1)

Does this mean that retribution spec should be hit capped now (Current patch) or wait till 3.1 to be hit capped? From what I understand we should be hit capped now and hit cap grows even more important in the patch.

 

• Zurm

There is no reason to be hit capped now. While its not BAD, it generally means you gemmed for hit or took less than ideal gear choices. STR is king until tomorrow. Come 3.1, hit AND expertise are both weighed higher than STR, due to the discovery of a 2-roll system. Crit also lost a little bit of value.

Next time, please try to read at least the last 10 pages or so of the thread before posting, this was answered numerous times.

 

Exemplar

Actually, per my spreadsheet, hit cap is more advantageous than Str even on live. You'll have to take my word for it since I haven't released a new live version - I won't until 3.1 and then release that version updated further. Since Rawr is already updated for 3.1 I don't think they could easily go back and test this. The 2 roll system advanced hit's utility by just that margin more than Str.

Increased seal damage makes it a clear leader in 3.1, gem and enchant for hit cap. If you're Alliance you can even go the route of casters and form a set of gear with a Draenei and one without (casters do this for with Misery/Imp FF and when without).

So, yes, feel free to go ahead and enchant Precision on gloves and/or gem for hit. Even on live. Yes, this coming from Your friendly "Gem only Str, stop asking" Exemplar. I've changed my ways.

Edit: To be even more explicit I would do the following if not hit capped.
1. If over 16 hit rating away, enchant Precision.
2. If still more than 16 below hit cap, gem Yellows (16 hit) until all yellow sockets are full (socket bonuses!).
3. Still below hit cap, change head enchant from Arcanum of Torment to Glyph of Ferocity.
4. Still below? Hit gems in blue sockets.
5. Still below?!??! Hit in red sockets and cry.

If you get to ~10 or less hit rating to reach cap, use an Orange (8 Hit/8 Str) gem instead of a Yellow. 11+ it's worthwhile to overshoot slightly, since it still affects spells.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Baklava09

You are 100% correct. 2 piece with best in slot leather is the way to go. Unfortunately many paladins like myself never bothered to pick them up and now it is so close to 3.1 that it really doesn't matter. I just wanted to let others know that you won't be sacrificing a HUGE dps loss still using the 4 piece bonus. I do recommend breaking it immediately with Ulduar gear though.

 

Gaizen

A. For a more personal gain of dps

B. More for raid damage. Like achivement runs and such. Imo

 

Ophylia

Can anyone from PTR comment on if it's better to wear tier8 or BiS items? I can see some items being clearly better than the tier equivalent, but what is the bonus worth? Having both bonuses seems to be pretty good, increasing the damage of almost everything in your rotation by 10%.
Basically just looking for thoughts or maybe tests people have done, since obviously not all loot is known yet.

 

Dorvan

That doesn't make any sense....when it comes to you personally selecting the timing of when you're going to use AW, whatever maximizes your personal DPS maximizes raid DPS as well. From an DPS perspective, you should always use 2 AWs that are not sync'ed with Heroism/Bloodlust over 1 AW which is sync'ed. The only reason to do otherwise is that you need to burst through a particularly dangerous phase when heroism is popped....in other words when burst DPS during a specific time frame is more important than overall DPS.

 

Endoscient

These two statements are totally contradictory. As AW only effects your personal dps, what increases your dps the most increases the raid dps the most.

It is better to use two separate AWs. Bloodlust would need to at least double your dps for only 1 AW to be worth it.

 

Thorgred

Just wondering what people are doing with their spare talent points.
As far as i can see, THIS is the PVE Ret spec, with 13 points spare. I like taking Command so I dont kill myself whilst soloing (ive done it before )

Im looking at different healing builds i can create with the leftover points. If you don't invest in BOM, you can get Spiritual Focus, Healing Light, 2/5 Divine Intellect and 3/5 Illumination.
Or instead of heading for illumination you can get SF, HL and 5/5 Divinity.

Or, you can pick up nearly all of the PVP talents (Divine Purpose E4E, Vindication, Guardian's Favor, Stoicism) +2 and get a PVE and PVP build from the same spec. I don't PVP much/at all so that likely won't be my choice, but others may want it.
What are other people doing?

 

Alleyra

Just a general heads up for everyone.

MMO-Champion is reporting that 3.1 will be going live tonight. I realize they're not always accurate, but their recent track record has been stellar.

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

• Snowy

Locking this per request of the author. A new thread for 3.1 will be forthcoming very soon -- in the interim if you have questions, please just be patient.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah