Using the latest numbers from the other thread, I came up with Betrayer > Jawbone > Death's Bite > Black Ice > Cryptfield's Bite > Inevitable Defeat > Armageddon

If you take hit out of the equation, Cryptfiend's Bite jumps up to being only slightly behind Jawbone. That's the weapon I ended up going with, as I needed something badly, don't need anymore hit, Jawbone refuses to drop, etc.


And back on the libram topic from a couple pages ago, it seems we are looking at a "get 2030 or go home" situation. Savage and Hateful librams did not make it live. Not sure I understand the logic of making the pve libram come from arena while the badge libram is clearly designed for pvp (and actually very good come 3.0.8 when the haste becomes crit).

It seems the Savage Libram at least is supposed to be sold in Wintergrasp: [Savage Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]

I just made my "wishlist", here it is, feel free to comment it!

Head: [Obsidian Greathelm] (gem #1: [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond], gem #2: [Bold Dragon's Eye], enchant: +50 Attack Power and +20 Critical Strike Rating)
Neck: [Fool's Trial]
Shoulders: [Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates] (gem #1: [Bold Dragon's Eye], enchant: +40 Attack Power and +15 Crit Rating)
Chest: [Valorous Redemption Chestpiece] (gem #1: [Bold Scarlet Ruby], gem #2: [Bold Scarlet Ruby], enchant: +10 All Stats)
Waist: [Girdle of Razuvious] (gem #1: [Bold Scarlet Ruby])
Legs: [Belabored Legplates] (gem #1: [Bold Scarlet Ruby], gem #2: [Bold Scarlet Ruby], enchant: +75 Attack Power and +22 Critical Strike Rating)
Feet: [Melancholy Sabatons] (enchant: Icewalker)
Wrist: [Bracers of Unrelenting Attack] (gem #1: [Bold Dragon's Eye], enchant: +50 Attack Power)
Hands: [Crude Discolored Battlegrips] (enchant: +44 Attack Power)
Ring: [Ruthlessness]
Ring #2: [Circle of Death]
Back: [Drape of the Deadly Foe] (enchant: +22 Agility)
Weapon: [Betrayer of Humanity] (enchant: +110 Attack Power/Berserking)
Relic: [Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]
Trinket: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket #2: [Mirror of Truth]

Stat-Summary:
Strength: 1332 (need 5 more)
Hit: 249 (7.59%)
Expertise: 19 (162 Rating)
Crit: 37.33%
Attackpower: 3717

I think that's the best gear obtainable for the moment. Any Improvements?

Arikah, I think you should mention what the JOL change means for us, instead of just what they're doing to it.

To be precise:

With any one Paladin, use Judgement of Wisdom, as its the most important effect.

With two Paladins, one Holy and one melee, the melee should use Judgement of Wisdom to provide 100% uptime on the most important effect, while the Holy uses Judgement of Light.

With two Paladins, one Ret and one Prot, the Ret should use Judgement of Light, since he would provide the best healing procs, while the Prot should use Judgement of Wisdom.

With three or more Paladins, follow the rule of Ret using Light and Prot using Wisdom, with the Holy Paladin and all other excess Paladins using Justice to prevent conflicts with the Ret's Heart of the Crusader and the Prot's Judgement of the Just.

It's not so simple, on many fights with a lot of aoe a strong JoL is very beneficial. Also, prot paladins have a lot of strength and ours has jol procs of around 525. You have to know your raid, do you run with a lot of casters who have mana issues? Do you run with a lot of melee? Does the fight feature a lot of aoe damage? Are you doing Sapph with 4 healers and no frost resistance at all?

I respectfully disagree about it being a matter of raids... The extra DPS that wisdom mana regen affords you is always going to be more valuable than a JoL that massively overheals in 75% of cases. Additionally, the difference between a low scaling and a high scaling one is about 150 per proc. Sure, that might be a measurable difference on a rogue or hunter, but most of your classes are attacking slowly enough that the difference (in HPS terms) is negligible.

Also, coming from the healing side of the equation, if the raid wide damage is important enough that that difference is noticeable (i.e. not overhealing everyone), you'd have someone CH/CoH/WGing... no one relies on JoL procs to keep people up. Moreover, with the nerf, wisdom uptime is going to be even more important. DPS casters might actually be running out of mana now in some situations! There is no reason to leave it to your Holy paladin who may very well have better things to use his GCD on then reapplying a raid buff.

Two factors to consider:

1) Mana may not be an issue to your DPS casters/hunters, but JoW procs are giving back approximately 2 times what they will be giving back come 3.08. Uptime will become more important if they are breaking even due to the current mechanics.

2) From my guilds WWS, while running light on healers (we always have had recruitment problems there) JoL averaged 81% overheal in Naxx, hitting highs and lows in effectiveness of 61% and 94% overheal respectively. A net difference per proc of about 200 health (between a retribution paladin and holy paladin), at an at best effectiveness of 50%, should not be appreciable.

If your casters are drowning in mana, then yes, the extra heals are better than the extra mana I suppose. Though it must be said that going in with higher wisdom uptime may allow them more flexibility in gearing/gemming, who knows. The 3.08 changes may change the picture was my main point.

Fair enough, I was just pointing out that people should make educated decisions on which seals to use. JoL does a lot of overhealing of course since it is not controlable, but it does a lot of healing as well. We run with about 10 melee in raids and 4 or 5 healers most of the time, some fights have ended with jol doing +20% of healing with overhealing factored out (we call it the 5th healer). None of the fights last long enough for mana to be an issue for casters. Now in 25 man they get wisdom but on similar fights in 10 man they often don't and mana is never an issue for them. But that's the them right now, nothing is really an issue for anyone so we have loads of time to complain about haste and arp on our gear :-)

So... nub question here. How do the Deadly Ret gloves stand up against the rest of high end raiding gear?

Has anyone else confirmed that if a Pally judges the same judgement and does not have either HotC or JotJ that it removes said buff if it was already there?

I do not see this in log files but it doesn't appear to show when the debuff expires so that's no help... nor was I able to re-create this on a training dummy (but that doesn't convince me either)

I usually roll with 2-4 pallys (1 ret 1 prot, rest holy) and seems like it could be a big deal if the debuffs were getting overridden. (And a pretty poor mechanic if it's not fixed) I'll do more testing but just wondering if anyone else has

What? JoW is going from 1% of total mana to 2% of base mana per proc.

The ret pally with 7.6k mana and 4394 base will see an increase of about 12 mana per proc (76 to 88).
The mage with 20k mana and 3268 base will see a decrease of 135 mana per proc (200 to 65).

JoW is being nerfed hard for pretty much everyone except ret and prot pallys, who will see a small boost.

To clarify, we are, in fact, saying the same thing.

Throwing this out there, but the Spiked Titansteel Helm is losing 40STR in the next patch, so get your hands on T7 or Obsidian ASAP.

That is inaccurate. Here are the live/ptr versions:

Live:
1821 Armor
+113 Strength
+60 Agility
60 hit rating
meta socket
(6 agi socket bonus)

PTR:
1821 Armor
97 STR
60 hit rating
44 crit rating
meta socket
blue socket
(socket bonus 8 crit rating)

How does it stack up points-wise? Is it still somewhat of it's former self (IE. only the [Obsidian Greathelm] beat it out in most comparisons.)?

The loss of 16 str is negated through the new socket so that's no problem. 44 crit is somewhat worse than 60 agility though, so a nerf it remains. And you'll probably loose the socket bonus.

So yeah, less crit. But no strength loss.

Right, about the DPS librams, i was doing some math of my own because i saw something that might make a difference. Adamantite weapon stones add their damage before multipliers take effect - which might mean that the Radiance libram might also take effect before its multipliers came into play.

So, basing this off my own weapons and gear = base weapon damage of approx 1800-1950, i started some math:
Using the PVP AP libram [Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]
120 is (based on old math, still dont know if its changed) is worth 60 DPS.
Using all available CS boosts, it hits 126.5% (based on tooltip average) weapon damage (includes PVP glove). Therefore;

1800-1950 x126.5% = 2277-2466 = 395.3 dps. +60 from PVP libram = 455.3dps. This is just a CS comparison, of course.

Now, using Radiance [Libram of Radiance], assuming the libram adds it effect before multipliers (BTW, some people report its damage has changed/will change to 127 in the patch, so i have used that value rather than the WoWhead value for now):

1800-1950 + 127 = 1927 - 2077 x126.5% = (2437.7 - 2627.4) /2 = 2532.55 = 422.1 dps

Now, unless AP - DPS conversions have changed, the PVP libram is worth 33.2dps more just for CS alone, never mind other attacks. Can someone check my math here, and help me confirm my rough results.

Could anyone calculate the difference in DPS between a [Wraith Spear] and a [Death's Bite].

Curious to know if the .3 weapon speed and extra crit makes up the difference.

Well, just looking at the basic difference:
[Death's Bite] provides an extra 126 AP straight off the bat taking into account Raid buffs. It has a higher weapon damage range, meaning our instant attacks and seals will hit harder (slightly, yes, but it is harder). At the end of the day, I would say that the axe is better.

Also, quoting the top of the page here, Wraith Spear isn't even on the list of weapon's for DPS upgrades, where as Death's Bite is seemingly 3rd. I think that should help answer the question too

The speed difference between my Sword of Justice and Clad Cleaver causes a 37-38 dmg difference per hit on SoB (.4 speed difference between the two).

Actually, I guess what i'm trying to convince myself is if the difference is less than 1% dps.

First hi to everyone here at EJ going to be my first post here.. im done with reading only

I just wanted to ask how much dps do you do on a 25er naxx on average?
Here is my last one:
Wow Web Stats
(was without new weapon)
And here is my Gear:
The World of Warcraft Armory

My rotation is currently more a FCFS style cause even if i start with a fixed rotation i get carried away over time. i prioritize Judge>CS>Con>GS

Is expertise rating or a fixed rotation really getting my dps by 500-600 up? I just need a few tips cause i hate to lose at dps-meter :/ and i hate it not being a contribution to the raid. leeching sucks

so far regards Valca

These the items I'm not sure about. Personally, I like the 4piece T7 more than getting Hit capped. Also, Rocking T7.5 legs and gloves over these two yield more Strength too because of the socket in the gloves.

If [Belabored Legplates] had any other DPS stat besides Armor Penetration, I'd consider it. But ArPen is just so... bad at the moment, for anyone.

Not sure If I'm a fan of this choice either. In my setup, I have a [Surge Needle Ring] here because 1% Hit outweighs 1% Dodge avoidance, roughly .8% more Crit, and only at a loss of 14 AP.