The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 19

Thalshara · 12/30/08, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Silvanoshei

So I've heard people mention a few times that Mana isn't an issue for Ret atm, but last night during Patchwerk in Naxx10 I found myself being Mana starved for quite a large portion of the fight. So much so, that I had to bring up SoW for a time to get back enough to keep going.

I've been playing around with a spreadsheet this morning trying to figure out how much mana I'm gaining and losing, and I can only find myself at a large deficit. So far I've been using a J > CS > DS > Cons - FCFS rotation with Exo thrown in to fill in the gaps. (This is all assuming a 10 second cons and no 4pcT7 bonus, and approx 7500 mana raid buffed).

Now these numbers are certainly not perfect, and please forgive the generalized nature of the maths, but within 20 seconds I would spend approx, 4923 mana

Judge (full mana) > CS (352) > DS (527) > Cons (967) > Exo (439) > Judgement (220) > CS (352) > DS (527) > Cons (967) > Judgement (220) > CS (352) = 4923 mana spent

Over that same period of time you would gain:

Approx 380 from replenishment (19x20seconds)
1977 from JoW (3 x 659)

Now I'm not sure if there's a great way of modeling the mana gain from spiritual attunement, but from looking at everyone's WWS and my own recount, it seems that the average tick is about 40 mana every 2 seconds. So if we include:

400 from spiritual attunement (40x10)

That leaves me with:

Mana gained - 2757
Mana spent - 4923
Diff: - 2166

Now I understand that mana is not supposed to be infinite, and that every 60 seconds Divine Plea returns approx. 1875 mana, but it seems a very heavy deficit. During the 10man Patchy fight last night, I was doing just over 2700 dps (certainly not what a lot of people are doing, so maybe my rotation is at fault for the mana inefficiency and lack of dps) but I feel that I'd be able to push that a little higher if I hadn't had to switch over to SoW for a time. I don't have a WWS available atm, but I'll try to get one up.

Is anyone else feeling as mana starved as I am?

There are certainly a lot of factors that can contribute to this, but I'll chime in to note that Patchwerk 10 is pretty much the ONLY raid fight (10s or 25s) I have mana issue with. I don't think it's a very good indicator of ret pally mana efficiency in a raid setting.

This is because, first off, there's no raid damage. You're not getting any ticks of environmental damage, no adds are tapping you, nothing, so you're getting no excess healing other than what you can cause to yourself with Blood. In your dps range, you're not causing a lot of damage to yourself, so you're overall getting less mana back. As your personal dps improves, your mana regen will improve because you're hurting yourself more, as someone mentioned. Also, in a 10 man raid you have fewer sources of mana regen. If you have no shaman for mana tide or even mana spring, and/or if you have no shadow priest, you're going to be hurting as a ret vs Patchwerk 10 if you're trying to throw a full rotation including consecrate and exorcism. That's the situation in my Naxx 10 group, and thus he's the only boss I actually have to use a mana pot on if I want to try and throw my full dps at him. Patchwerk 25 is no problem, because there's almost always a shadow priest and shaman totems down helping with the regen.

So really, if your mana is doing fine on all the other bosses, I wouldn't say you have a problem. You shouldn't ever be running out of mana on pretty much any other fight (maybe Gluth since you may never be hit there either and you want to use consecrate and holy wrath on zombies - but he'll die faster than Patchwerk).

Also, you're a blood elf so make sure to remember Arcane Torrent whenever it's up. Not much, but helps.

Mordekhuul · 12/30/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by MasterLoco

JC gems will not be upgraded... I can tell you that much already.

Got a link to support that? I can see where it would throw off the value of the JC-only perk (Dragon's Eye gems)...but not if a new round of Dragon's Eye cuts were included that took a Dragon's Eye plus something else (an epic gem perhaps).

If epic gems won't come in, Rawr really needs to ditch all of those epic gems that are there by default, as a side-note.

Trammell · 12/30/08, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Boaz

I remember someone else asking this but I can't seem to find it so I'm just going to ask. Does anyone know where the Deadly and Hateful gloves rank amongst the other gloves for PvE. Thanks for the answers.

I myself am curious to this as well. We did the 10 man wintergrasp while we had control and out of the blue the Hateful gloves dropped. This was kind of like throwing a wrench in to my cog's

but stat for stat, socket + blacksmith socket and crusher enchant. These gloves appeared to me better then my current [Gauntlets of Capture]. I am looking at what other options are in 10 man and here is what I am thinking.

[Gauntlets of Combined Strength] *haste & armor pen just turns me away
[Heroes' Redemption Gauntlets] *don't like the stats and are going for 2pc T7 while in 10 man.
[Gauntlets of Capture] *was replaced by [Hateful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
[Rusted-Link Spiked Gauntlets] *was on my list (I have to much hit)
[Rapid Attack Gloves] *on my list to get for expertise

The +5% Crusader Strike damage was the final deciding factor for me.

The only plate DPS gloves with expertise in game at the moment is from 25 man Naxx. [Zeliek's Gauntlets]

eMagdAeH · 12/30/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Thalshara

There are certainly a lot of factors that can contribute to this, but I'll chime in to note that Patchwerk 10 is pretty much the ONLY raid fight (10s or 25s) I have mana issue with. I don't think it's a very good indicator of ret pally mana efficiency in a raid setting.

This is because, first off, there's no raid damage. You're not getting any ticks of environmental damage, no adds are tapping you, nothing, so you're getting no excess healing other than what you can cause to yourself with Blood. In your dps range, you're not causing a lot of damage to yourself, so you're overall getting less mana back. As your personal dps improves, your mana regen will improve because you're hurting yourself more, as someone mentioned. Also, in a 10 man raid you have fewer sources of mana regen. If you have no shaman for mana tide or even mana spring, and/or if you have no shadow priest, you're going to be hurting as a ret vs Patchwerk 10 if you're trying to throw a full rotation including consecrate and exorcism. That's the situation in my Naxx 10 group, and thus he's the only boss I actually have to use a mana pot on if I want to try and throw my full dps at him. Patchwerk 25 is no problem, because there's almost always a shadow priest and shaman totems down helping with the regen.

So really, if your mana is doing fine on all the other bosses, I wouldn't say you have a problem. You shouldn't ever be running out of mana on pretty much any other fight (maybe Gluth since you may never be hit there either and you want to use consecrate and holy wrath on zombies - but he'll die faster than Patchwerk).

Also, you're a blood elf so make sure to remember Arcane Torrent whenever it's up. Not much, but helps.

There is a nice way to help combat this. Your tanks should be positioning Patch right by the slime as it is, you can take advantage of that further than most melee. Once your mana drops below 50% jump in the slime, your health will drop by half, but your mana won't change. However, this ONLY applies when you have less than 50% mana. If you do it while above 50% you'll loose mana. The healing coming back in will substitute for no raid damage. It gimps DPS slightly because of the movement, but will return more mana, which in turn increases DPS a bit more than moving will cost you.

Korhallen · 12/30/08, 12:16 PM

This may or may not have been covered, but if you need splash damage, wouldn't Hand of Sacrifice help a bit with that? Perhaps something manageable on the MT for Patchwerk, since the majority of damage comes from Hatefuls instead of directly on the MT.

Sigilmir · 12/30/08, 12:28 PM

Hmm, I've been mostly doing heroics with some 10 man Naxx here and there, currently I'm at 3150 AP unbuffed. Mostly heroic epics and 2pc t7, anyway... I've been hearing reports about people doing 15k judgements and up, even in 10 man raids. The highest Judgement I've done so far is 10k abouts and I think those were even with AW up. What is up with those insane judgements? Am I doing something wrong or is the gear difference that huge? (which I doubt, even between full heroic epic and Naxx 10/25 man mixed epics the difference shouldn't be 5k)

Help a brotha out.

• Heavenly · 12/30/08, 12:34 PM

It's mostly RNG/stars aligned with a surprisingly huge Judgement on a fight without damage multipliers. Example: Avenging Wrath and Mirror+Greatness proc at the same time.

Sigilmir · 12/30/08, 12:42 PM

Undoubtedly stars aligned, yeah

But yeah figures, cheers. I kinda figured it'd be with SOME procs but yeah. Didn't think of the +300 Str proc. Sounds about right, cheers.

Silvanoshei · 12/30/08, 12:59 PM

Does anyone that has been pushing 5k on 25 man Patchy have a WWS from a 10 man? I'm just curious as to what kind of numbers people are seeing in 10s rather than 25s.

Trammell · 12/30/08, 1:02 PM

In 10 man I have had all of these going at once while whacking away on patch.

Avenging Wrath - Increases all damage and healing caused by 20% for 20 sec.
Berserker's Call - Increases attack power by 360 for 20 sec.
Mirror of Truth - Chance on critical hit to increase your attack power by 1000 for 10 secs.
Horn of Winter - increasing total Strength and Agility of all party or raid members within 30 yards by 155

I just started logging reports and see this on last weeks clear

Tonystark Judgement of Blood hits Thaddius for 10331 Holy. (Critical)

so the positive or negative charge can also play apart in those huge crits.

I just might have to get that mod that keeps track of those things.

Originally Posted by Silvanoshei

Does anyone that has been pushing 5k on 25 man Patchy have a WWS from a 10 man? I'm just curious as to what kind of numbers people are seeing in 10s rather than 25s.

Nothing to write home about, but I am happy with only having cleared Naxx 3 times so far.
Wow Web Stats

IWEARGOGGLES · 12/30/08, 4:30 PM

Have you all tried waiting a second before casting it again? I know some people were saying that when you instantly cast it after the cooldown comes off it doesn't proc the mana correctly.

Eolra · 12/30/08, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by Trammell

In 10 man I have had all of these going at once while whacking away on patch.

Avenging Wrath - Increases all damage and healing caused by 20% for 20 sec.
Berserker's Call - Increases attack power by 360 for 20 sec.
Mirror of Truth - Chance on critical hit to increase your attack power by 1000 for 10 secs.
Horn of Winter - increasing total Strength and Agility of all party or raid members within 30 yards by 155

I just started logging reports and see this on last weeks clear so the positive or negative charge can also play apart in those huge crits.

I just might have to get that mod that keeps track of those things.

Nothing to write home about, but I am happy with only having cleared Naxx 3 times so far.
Wow Web Stats

I'm confused here, 10k judgement of blood on thaddius? that seems really low when most with the charge stacks are in the 20k range.

eMagdAeH · 12/31/08, 12:33 AM

Probably the difference between 10 and 25 man. Even in nearly full 25 man gear I'm still not getting much higher than 13k on 10 man Thaddius, but I'm consistently getting 22.5k on 25 man.

aylen86 · 12/31/08, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by Silvanoshei

Does anyone that has been pushing 5k on 25 man Patchy have a WWS from a 10 man? I'm just curious as to what kind of numbers people are seeing in 10s rather than 25s.

Wow Web Stats

I doubt that there are people doing 15k judgements in 10man raids, it's not even an all-stars-aligned-thing, you will pretty much need every possible raidbuff.

Lomir · 01/01/09, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Arikah

Metas:
[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond]
This is my preferred meta, simply because of fairly easy gem requirements. You do lose between .5 and 1 DPS between this and the following gem, but you probably gain more DPS by not using 2 blue gems.

First of all Happy new year to every one! And second excuse me for the off topic question, but I'm wondering is that soo? Are you completely sure that 21 agi + 3% increased crit dmg is better then the 21 crit + 3% increased crit dmg? Yes you have a point there indeed the gem requirements are fairly easy but still the crit rating is important stat in order to keep your Vengeance up. So my question is: Whats the best and most preferred meta gem?

Rhy · 01/01/09, 7:27 AM

Well using the numbers from the main post (45.9 crit rating for 1% crit and 52 agility for 1% crit ) you get:

[Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] - 21 agility is roughly 0.40% crit.

[Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] - 21 crit rating is roughly 0.46% crit.

If you use [Enchanted Tear]x2 to get the requirement for the Chaotic Skyflare thats 12 to all stats.

If you use [Enchanted Tear]x1 to get the requirement for Relentless Earthsiege thats 6 to all stats + additional 16 str gem. Tbh, I am kinda bad at math but I am sure that 16 str over 6 all stats will cover for the 0.06% crit difference.
Ofc, if you are JCer its really not hard to figure it out

Ivriniel · 01/01/09, 7:59 AM

You can only use a single [Enchanted Tear] it's unique equiped.

Rhy · 01/01/09, 9:11 AM

Oops...A big fail there, sorry.

1xEnchanted Tear ( 6 stats ) and 16 str vs 1xEnchanted Tear and 1xSovereign Twilight Opal.

So in the end you have to choose between 6 str and 0.06% crit.

Xiangnala · 01/01/09, 10:25 AM

This may or may not have been covered, but if you need splash damage, wouldn't Hand of Sacrifice help a bit with that? Perhaps something manageable on the MT for Patchwerk, since the majority of damage comes from Hatefuls instead of directly on the MT.

I actually have a really good friend as one of our healers and I have a macro that casts HoSac on my focus target (either the MT or an OT) and whispers her so she knows I'll need a bit of extra healing. This generally allows me to include both exorcism and holy wrath in my free GCDs, increasing my dps by a bit. If you can arrange it with a healer like I did, depending on the fight, you can have a near endless mana pool.

Dozr · 01/01/09, 11:16 AM

I am in need for hit for the gear i have at the moment, and i was wondering what other people thought of using [Dying Curse] instead of [Grim Toll] only because what i have read about armor pen is it not the greatest stat, and since our judgment is our #1 dps if the proc from Dying Cure would be more beneficial. I would not take this from other casters only asking cause almost every caster in my guild has this. Ty for the help.

Malleus · 01/01/09, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

You can only use a single [Enchanted Tear] it's unique equiped.

OTOH, you can use a [Sovereign Twilight Opal], as and when it appears in game, or a Perfect at a loss of one additional point of Strength until then. I still think the maths favours Relentless over Chaotic at this time, though; I peg activating the Chaotic at -10 Strength for +0.2% crit in T7.25 helm/[Belabored Legplates] or [Obsidian Greathelm]/T7.25 legs, or -4 Strength for +0.06% crit in Greathelm/T7.25 shoulders.

One point regarding the Relentless is that depending on your available socket bonuses, it may be worth activating it without using a Tear. Right now, the non-red sockets in T7.25 helm and shoulders can be filled with [Perfect Inscribed Huge Citrine] and [Perfect Sovereign Shadow Crystal], giving a trade-off of 4 Strength for 7 crit rating. That's a fractional loss, but when the rare Inscribed and Sovereigns become available - which will reputedly be in 3.0.8 - they will generate a fractional gain.

Thalshara · 01/01/09, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by eMagdAeH

There is a nice way to help combat this. Your tanks should be positioning Patch right by the slime as it is, you can take advantage of that further than most melee. Once your mana drops below 50% jump in the slime, your health will drop by half, but your mana won't change. However, this ONLY applies when you have less than 50% mana. If you do it while above 50% you'll loose mana. The healing coming back in will substitute for no raid damage. It gimps DPS slightly because of the movement, but will return more mana, which in turn increases DPS a bit more than moving will cost you.

This may be the most awesome suggestion ever. Can't believe I haven't been doing that for mana regen, since my back is always to the slime stream. Thanks!

Shldnhearth · 01/01/09, 5:34 PM

Doesn't the slime also give a huge de-buff to your stats (str, agil etc) for a short period of time? I was under the impression for some reason that it does.

*edit*
I just tested this and it does, but for only the fraction of a second that you dip in. As soon as you're out they go back to normal

Gaeryth · 01/01/09, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by Dozr

I am in need for hit for the gear i have at the moment, and i was wondering what other people thought of using [Dying Curse] instead of [Grim Toll] only because what i have read about armor pen is it not the greatest stat, and since our judgment is our #1 dps if the proc from Dying Cure would be more beneficial. I would not take this from other casters only asking cause almost every caster in my guild has this. Ty for the help.

First of all, [Dying Curse] provides less hit rating than [Grim Toll] does, and secondly, even if armor penetration is bad it's still almost twice as good as spell power. And Dying Curse procs on spells where Grim Tolls procs on melee attacks so the uptime of the Toll will be much higher. So there's really no contest.

Tonyk · 01/02/09, 1:38 AM

Our only "spells" are Exorcism, Consecrate, and Holy Wrath.
All Judgments are now considered Ranged attacks like Hunter shots for the hit tables so they won't proc anything that goes off a spell cast.