Rawr is largely useless for retribution, as there are some major bugs with the current version: Rawr - View Issue

The Glyph of Seal of Blood isn't additive. It makes it 11% mana return, not 20%.

I can only imagine this is a mistake, because then there's no reason to ever use it over Glyph of Spiritual Attunement which is a lower level Glyph.

Regarding AP:
Yes it is rated middle of the road. But that's on a 1 to 1 basis.

1 AP is less important than, for example, 1 crit. However, itemization is typically 2 AP compared to 1 crit. If you had two items, one had 1 more AP than you currently have and the other 1 more crit - you would pick the crit. If one had 2 AP and one had 1 crit - you would pick the AP. Crit isn't twice as good as AP.

Everything must be taken in context. All else being equal, 1 Str (our best stat) vs 20 Spelldam - the spelldam would actually pull ahead.

Remember to look at the big picture - gear doesn't have only one stat on it.

Cons is better than SoB not only for less mana used on Cons since it lasts longer, but less GCD interruptions.

SoB is a horrible because SA glyph works on everything and is 1% better.

SoR with 5/5 SotP could be better than SoC (an example where you should not use SoB is Loathob in Naxx and soloing elites). However, that is 5 points versus 1 for situational abilities.

There are better things to do with 4 talent points.

Well, I personally would have never thought of comparing 1 Ap to 1 Agility, cause that woul be like comparing 1 Strength to 2 crit rating.

The Item Value of 2 AP is the same as 1 Agility or 1 Strength.

But ok, if you would Compare 1 Ap to 1 Agility or any Stat with a similar Itemvalue as Agility, AP would be really bad.

While true, as the OP stated at the start of the thread, Ret ends up with about 5 extra talent points lying around. Even more than that if you tailor your build specifically to your raid comp (i.e. not taking swift retribution if you have a Chicken in raid). So to that end I am attempting to figure out which will yield the highest dps theoretically. I'd test it in game but my computer does not like recount =(

I wouldn't discount the effectiveness of certain talents in the PvE scene that some people tend to pass over or perhaps label as PvP.

Divine Purpose: The removal of a stun for your MT (or even yourself) can be quite benificial for fights that have any kind of stun involved.

Imp Might: Of course depends on the group comp you have... but generally speaking I enjoy having this as an option when needed. Most of the time a holy pally will have this on their way to the 5% crit, however.


Improved Ret Aura: I used to laugh at this talent, but now that the aura does a considerably larger amount of dmg, it is something I enjoy having. Since I'm running this aura all the time and I generally have the extra points, I pick this up. I admit that the threat gain for your MT would be small for a single target, but it's nice to have when your tank is AOE tanking things.

SoC: I guess the crux of the debate would be if we should be using this or JoR/JoV with SotP talent. But the ability to swap to it in a quick PvP encounter without having to worry about a respec is nice.


In my opinion, the addition of all of these abilities and utility outweighs the (perhaps slim) amount of dps gain for using SoR/SoV with the 4-5 talent points in SotP.


Then again, if you want to do this kind of math, I guess this forum would be the place to do it, right?

In my PvE Ret build, the extra 5 points go to:

SoC, Divine Purpose (4% less spells landed is useful) is great on some of the Naxx trash and Utguard Penn, and Imp Might is great for soloing and 5 mans.

I didn't like imp Ret Aura because the soloing damage from Ret Aura is nearly worthless and tanks do not need threat help.


Those 5 points spent above is worth a lot more to me than an extra 100ish dps from SoR when I cannot use SoB.

Divine Purpose is really a required talent IMO for the stun removal. In 5 mans it goes without saying how useful this is but even in raids it has its uses. Instant web removal in the Naxx spider wing for example is very nice when the healer gets targetted.

Imp Might you can skip if you are 100% of the time with another pally who has it but really its silly to skip this.

SoC is well worth the 5th point if nothing else just for situations where you can't get a healer and have to be self sufficient.

While this is true about threat from JoL, if your pulling aggro due to JoL in 25 mans then your tanks need to not suck AND OR your hunters and rogues need to learn to use their distraction abilities.

JoL should be our primary nuke assuming there is another paladin in the raid who is judging wisdom.

I've had WWS reports show me only 50,000 healing done below the "last place healer" with the same amount of overhealing as that last placed healer and I never pulled aggro.